My Way or the Highway

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No, your metaphor isn't ultimatum at all, it's just a regular negotiation with an open mind for getting a middle ground satisfying both parties; it's like saying to your supplier "I am facing fierce competition in the market, let's revise prices" - that's negotiation, the ultimatum version would be something like "Give me a 50% now discount or I'll stop working with you" - that's ultimatum because there's the threat of breaking the relation involved.

In the OP's story, the woman wasn't open for a middle ground, it was an ultimatum; the negotiation version would be more like "How about we spend Christmas with my parents, and we spend New eve with yours?" - or "how about to spend half the evening with them and then the other half with yours?" - something like that.

Ultimatums are a part of negotiation. They can happen at the beginning. They can happen in the middle. And, sometimes, they are what ends the negotiation. The threat of breaking a relation is always present. There is nothing stopping one person from walking away from a relationship for x, y, or z reason. It doesn't actually need to be threatened for it to be understood. However, it can be used a tool to make the other party realize how serious you are over important issues. Family is obviously an important issue to this woman, and the man decided that dealing with her family was not worth having her in his life. He is the one that made the choice to leave. She is not abusing him, she is not ordering him around, and if he had decided to continue the negotiations further then perhaps it wouldn't have come to the ending described. But we will never really know.

The OP's story is third-hand and basically a biased account, of a biased account, of a biased account. When painted in that light, ultimatums look like horrible, disgusting things used to manipulate people. Oh, the horror~ But they're not. Ultimatums are a natural part of negotiation. Negotiation is required for people to compromise. Compromise is necessary for a healthy relationship.

According to the official definition of "Ultimatum" (provided by the "Merriam-Webster Dictionary") ...

Ultimatum: A final proposition, condition, or demand; especially one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action.

In this case, the "direct action" offered was for the woman to punish the man by denying him any future access to her. No wonder he chose this option, because while you may believe that issuing an ultimatum is the first step in negotiations, the rest of the world knows that an ultimatum is nothing more than a final demand for submission to a conceited and arrogant dictator who seeks to punish any and all who refuse to obey.

Yes. Her boyfriend going to spend the holiday with her family was a demand. Yes, it was phrased as an ultimatum. It was her demand, the end of her terms, and unless her family is a bunch of cannibals or something it was a reasonable demand. Ending the relationship is not a punishment. Ending the relationship because he refuses to accede to reasonable demands is just logical. I see nothing wrong with terminating a relationship, and in effect ending negotiations, with someone who is not willing to meet any of the terms. Simply because one person has inputted their last demand does not mean that the conversation is over. He could have easily accepted her terms, and added his own. He did not have to walk away. Any “punishment” he “received” was of his own volition.

Comparing this sort of a disagreement to dictators is totally ridiculous. People will always disagree with each other. It's life. People will become dramatic and oh, I don't know, throw out silly ultimatums. In the context you have given us, I agree with the woman, but only because it reads to me as an issue about family, and that's important to me. So, I assume, that it is important to her and his total dismissal of it, and their relationship, was terrible. If, for example, she demanded to move in with him, or end the relationship, I would agree with the man. It's all about context. But, y'know, our context is a little skewed because you got this info third-hand. Maybe if I had all the information I'd change my stance.

Seems like I have different perspective on this than most Aspies--I've gone to so many social gatherings as a kid--weddings and such with really strange food--my parents gave me a pass on actually eating it--that I handle them pretty well as an adult.

I see going to the family holiday as a typical NT relationship obligation--if you are going to hook up with someone they have a right to introduce you to their family--there was Big Bang Theory episode on this very issue.

I wonder if, by the same logic, the woman who gave the ultimatum should also consider this action as just part of the "negotiations".


*the logic being that when you say something, you really mean something else.

Except that throwing out silly ultimatums isn't really that normal. I can't think of any time in any of my relationships that I've given my partner two options, one being breaking up, if I didn't mean it. And vice versa. Maybe in your dating world "people become dramatic", but in mine I try to date people who are more sensible. So if I was given this kind of ultimatum, I would do the same as the man did, as I would assume the other person is being serious, and if they aren't then they are too overly dramatic for me anyway.

Sure, they have the right to introduce you to their family; but that does not confer upon them the privilege of demanding that you cooperate "or else".

The issue at hand is not so much that she wanted him to meet her folks, but that she presented her wish as an ultimatum without any room for negotiation.

"Your money or your life" is an un-negotiable ultimatum, while "Can you spare me a few dollars?" is a thoroughly negotiable request.

"Meet my family or we're through" is an un-negotiable ultimatum, while "Would you like to meet my family?" is also a thoroughly negotiable request.

Why people believe that ultimatums can form a sound basis for communication in an allegedly loving relationship is something that makes no sense to me. If you want something from someone you love, a simple request is all that's needed, not a demand coupled with a threat - which is the form that an ultimatum takes.

The woman made a serious relationship blunder, and now she'll have to endure the holidays without her favorite man-pet.

I do not feel at all sorry for her.

Rhapsody, I hope I won't be in a relationship with somone who thinks like you.

sounds awful. such a ultimatum would give me lots of anxiety. but would I really want to stay with someone who gave it.

what if he wants to spend the holidays with his family? is that not also important or is her family more important then his. I don't feel it is. so she could have been saying choose me or them. seems logical to choose family over a gf. family has been and will be there but can't say the same for a gf.

better to talk about it and try to find a middle area then issue a ultimatum.

We should most definitely discourage the practice of thinking of or issuing ultimatums in any circumstance.

In this particular circumstance, I believe the woman has demonstrated that she takes the man for granted and has shown a complete lack of respect for his feelings or wants or needs in that situation. However, I have to put in a caveat here - it seems that in the world of NTs, the community/family activities are considered something of a givens so it may very well be that the woman was basically commenting on the fact that the man was proposing to break the big unspoken rule of human relationships which is that each party signs up to endure any social activities that the other party or their family deems important. In the world of social creatures, a relationship is not a union between two people, it is a union between two communities.

Still, I think the woman's communication style was not useful or appropriate - in short, she was in the wrong to issue an ultimatum.


PS I just thought of something else. People issue ultimatums to children when they are trying to get a child to obey an instruction. i.e. "Stop misbehaving right now or I will take away your toys or Be quiet or you will be sent to your room" which is essentially what this woman was saying to her man. She was assuming he would want to be with her in all circumstances just as adults assume the child would be too terrified of being alone/denied their wants to defy the adult's demands. So, while a small child cannot be reasoned with and ultimatums seem to be the only way to stop them screaming, the same cannot be said of adults and therefore issuing an ultimatum to an adult is highly disrespectful.

Hi Rhapsody. I just wanted to say thank you for enlightening me a little on this issue. It's not that I agree with you, but what you say makes sense. and reading all your posts I can begin to understand why some people might have a very different view of ultimatums than I do. Thanks for taking the time to explain your view

As I see it, the ultimatum is a play for power. While the woman didn't, like you say, completely end negotiations, she certainly narrowed the options and upped the stakes. In a sense the man was not strictly ending negotiations either and was also making a similar move to her in this "dance". His response was basically along the lines of "Ultimatums of this kind are unacceptable to me in our relationship, and I'm about to prove it to you". She could have called him back as he walked away, apologised and explained that she didn't want to break up but just that she wanted him to understand how important this issue was to her. She could have phoned him later and done the same. Perhaps she still can.

Like the woman, the man narrowed the options and upped the stakes. I guess it's a little like a poker game in a way. However, in any relationship I'm in, it is fundamentally important to me that both of us lay our real cards on the table and do not bluff. That's part of the foundation of an honest and trusting relationship. Ultimatums are okay if you genuinely mean them, and you are just giving your partner one last chance before you make that decision to walk away.

People who use ultimatums in their personal relationships always seem to eventually end up as exes: ex-wives, ex-girlfriends, ex-employees, ex-convicts, et cetera.

Sure, haggling is one thing, gambling is another, but personal relationships should be based on mutual love, trust, and respect; not demands, threats, and self-centeredness.

Agreed. But to be fair, it's almost certain that she did not present her ultimatum before asking him nicely whether he'd come and spend Christmas with her family. The ultimatum surely came after his refusal.

I too have always hated casual ultimatums, false break-ups designed to shock, or exaggerated drama of any kind. There can be a lot more trust when both parties show that they value the relationship highly and can say what they actually mean.

An ultimatum ends negotiations.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, Fnord, please stop with the derogatory language. It's rude to the theoretical guy in question. You shouldn't call anybody a man-pet, because there is nothing wrong with respecting a woman enough to do what she asks when it is reasonable. Spending the holidays with a family that might become your family through marriage is reasonable. You should also rethink what basic human rights are, because I am fairly certain that meeting the family of your SO isn't a right, it's a reasonable request.

Also, feelings don't really come into this at all. I don't feel sorry for either the man or the woman. This might be the aspergers talking, but they're not real people to me. With what little information we have been given on them this basically works as a thought experiment. In this experiment we have two people. They are dating. One refuses to spend the holiday with the other's family. The other says that if he can't handle that, then he can't handle a relationship with her.

These people have no names, no faces, no personality, and we have no background understanding of what occurred before the ultimatum. So, because they are basically blank slates we are able to project that we are in the situation, which might be where all the squishy feelings come in. Anyway, agreeing with your wife does not mean I feel sorry for her friend. It also does not mean I think that ultimatums are the next I dunno, Prada or something. Just because I agree with the ultimatum in this situation does not mean that I use them on a daily basis or will blindly defend anyone who uses them. However, if you wanted everyone to simply agree with you then I would have suggested using a different scenario.

The scenario you chose to posit the idea that ultimatums are bad under any scenario is one where I believe that an ultimatum is valid. People are not free floating organisms. We have family, we have baggage, and it goes with us wherever we go. Like JPS said (and thank you JPS <3) it's highly unlikely that she issued this ultimatum before his initial refusal. If he was acting unreasonably, than it makes sense she would get upset and without really thinking of the implications use an ultimatum, which, as Plum pointed out, are most often used with children who aren't able to be reasoned with easily. I still believe he was the one who ended negotiations by physically leaving the argument but I suppose that is still open to contemplation.

This is only in the situation you gave us, however, Fnord. Like I said before, were the situation different my opinion would differ. Also, if you are in a relationship where you are constantly being given ultimatums like this, you need to get out of it. The overuse of ultimatums (which we cannot assume from the above scenario, but apparently was assumed anyway?) is actually a kind of abuse. No one should be in an abusive relationship. However, there is nothing wrong with the occasional ultimatum. They are not, in and of themselves, an evil and horrible thing. They also can occur at any moment in a conversation in which one person states their end terms, but don't necessarily end a conversation.

Boo, sweetie, the feeling is completely and utterly mutual. <3