More Thought on Incels.

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There is a lot of data that suggest even where a unattached cis-straight woman is friends with a male that she is assessing his potential as a long term partner. Even if she says no, she just wants to be friends, subconciously she has already done it.

if circumstances for the male "friend" suddenly changes and they lose their job or win the lottery then the "friendship" might change to "ghosting" or sudden romantic interest.

The algorithm is never simple, you also got to factor how much demand the girl has from other men, plus whether she is not serious about settling down (in the latter case I find it fascinating how many girls I knew from my 30s who try and re-engage with me. Apparently I was in consideration but I had no idea at the time
Then if course you have the philosophy "I'm young so just want to have fun"

I also heard that being in a relationship instantly makes other women see you in a better light. It's like your current partner acts as a "Certificate of Quality", (at least good enough to keep a partner). It's a check you can't cash, though. Men who cheat or divorce instantly rank lower than men who don't, presumably because they lost their certificate.

Well as far as the notion that women are a lot about looks when it comes to men and that is why incels strike out, there are a lot of women out there who do not have high standards in looks when it comes to men. Now there is the argument made before that women probably find those men goodlooking but do they really?

I brought up my female friend before who can't get goodlooking guys and so she settles for guys who are selfish and perhaps even a bit abusive towards her in bed. These guys are not goodlooking at all. You can make the argument that she thinks they are. But when I ask her, she said that looks are not important to her. That's not an answer that a woman would give if she thought her guys were goodlooking. If she thought they were, she would say so.

So in that case, why don't incel men just for a woman like her, where she doesn't get goodlooking guys because she feels she cannot?

Well because the ones like that, cannot step back and see that such women are people. Like it is not so much they want to get a committed relationship they just want to use a woman for sex and social status like they saw some of those chads in HS do. But a lot of the women who never were popular and struggle finding a real genuine person would probably be more accepting of someone that does not tick off all the attractiveness boxes for conventional attractiveness if only they were not so toxic. Like I think an 'ugly' guy would certainly still have a chance if the practiced a more positive attitude and were more realistic of the kind of girls they'd have a chance with, instead of putting on the goggles of only seeing blonde women who reminisce of the HS hotties they could never get as women and seeing the women they'd more realistically get as 'eww gross why would I consider such a downgrade I need a trophy of a girl that will impress people.'

So I figure that is what people are talking about when they talk of ugly guys who got a relationship, at some point maybe they learned to be more realistic and date a women more in their league instead of being stuck on that whole, well why can't I get one of the super hot ones. But I am no expert just kind of seems at least some of the unhappy single guys are disregarding women who they could have a chance with because they got their goggles on to only see those elusive sexy blondes as women and I guess get the idea that the women outside of that particular sterotype are just trolls under the bridge.

You'd love a good steak, but it's too expensive, so you'll settle for a hamburger. You're not gonna eat the expired or undercooked meat.

I don't blame women for having their own biological standards. My contention is that men can't see that other men are "tainted meat," because in our eyes, these men look fine, but they fail the woman's attraction test.

Your female friend is saying that while she prefers steak, she'll settle for a hamburger. For men she sees as "tainted meat," she'd never touch them. She'd rather get with the jerk hamburger than some ugly "tainted meat" guy. Hence, why she puts up with the jerk hamburgers...they're passable to her looks-wise. It's all about sexual attraction first and foremost. You don't have to be the most handsome, but she has to find you somewhat attractive. So, she'll settle for jerks she finds passable as opposed to the uglies. That's what she means when she says "looks don't matter." She's saying she'll settle for a passable jerk as opposed to a good-looking and well-behaved man....and she won't touch the man she finds ugly, regardless of how many showers he takes, what clothes he wears, or what his personality is.

^ why are you so obsessed with looks being the only factor that you can't accept evidence against it?

There have to be some attraction, true. But imagine even physical attraction can happen on totally non-visual levels (like odor, voice, way of moving, touch).

I never said it was the ONLY factor. But it's first and foremost the prime prerequisite. Don't have to be a hunk, just passable. If below the passable threshold, nothing will compensate for it. Average guys who let themselves go should work on self-improvement. For some, the same self-improvement won't help, looks are required to get a foot-in-the-door.

Where is the evidence to the contrary? Men claiming other men they think are ugly have girlfriends, so anyone can get one?...men can't tell what women find physically attractive, they're poor judges. They're take on average vs. ugly doesn't align with women's (ToM). Women themselves getting defensive? Please. If you don't find the guy at least passable, nothing he does will compensate. Are you saying you don't find your husband at least a little physically attractive?

If you interpret women telling you their experiences as "getting defensive", you'll learn nothing from them.
Looks is really low on my list. Smell isn't.
Intellect is my personal first prerequisite. I readily dated guys I found visually ugly if they matched my intellectual bar.
Women do have different tastes, just like anyone else.

Do you find your husband totally ugly, but like him for other qualities? You side-stepped the question. Instead of "virtue signaling," answer honestly. You think your husband is ugly, but agreed to marry him for his other qualities? Looks didn't play a part at all? And I'm not asking you if there are men you find more attractive than your husband. I'm asking if you found him totally ugly, would you still be with him? I think not. Don't side-step. Oh, and where's that "evidence" you purported?

I think objectively he's average-looking. Maybe even (objectively) a bit below average for some minor malformations after his childhood rickets. I find them cosy but on a male beauty contest they would probably disqualify.
I find his smell attractive and I really like the way he's to touch.
I definitely married him for different qualities - he wouldn't get my phone number if we didn't have a really good conversation.

But she said it herself though when I asked her, that she would go for a lesser looking guy if the guy was better in bed, and not selfish. She said that bedroom skill and not being selfish, is more important than looks.

ONE woman said this, and I sincerely doubt that her preferences are the same as the other 3.4 billion women.

But what makes looks more important than bedroom skill though? I'm a guy and I will take bedroom skill and personality over looks in a woman, and would not want a goodlooking woman if that means she is just going to selfish and possibly abusive in bed. So what would make looks more important therefore, if most people prefer looks over bedroom skill?

The personal preferences of an individual woman.The personal preferences of an individual woman.

You'd be surprised how much of an impact one person's words can have. Case in point. When I was 21 or so, I was having lunch with my alpha male friend, the one who had 4 friends with benefits and countless hookups. A young, very attractive waitress was serving us. During the meal, I heard her say to her colleague: "Oh my god! Look at his eyes! [gesturing toward me] Ew! He's so gross!" She also rolled her eyes when I asked her to leave out the caramelized onions. Then, when my burger came, it looked tampered with. I was afraid to eat it, since I feared the waitress put a laxative in it or rubbed it between her butt cheeks, out of her disgust with my face. I just ate my fries, and my friend was nice enough to let me eat some of his too. I wrapped my "poisoned" burger in a napkin, and tossed it under my chair. I was afraid to complain to the manager too, since I knew she had him wrapped around her finger, and he'd just accuse me of lying. The only satisfying part was leaving her a 10-cent tip.

I'm sure the waitress didn't expect me to hear her, but I did. It was a signal for me to do something about my looks. About 2 weeks later, I called a plastic surgeon who advertised on the radio in my city, and went to him for a consultation. I explained to him what happened to me, and why I wanted the surgery. He took a picture of my face, and ran it through a computer simulation program. While I liked my new face, I didn't like what the surgeon told me afterwards. The surgery would cost at least $10,000 out of pocket and require 6 weeks of aftercare/recovery time, neither of which I could afford. He must have taken pity on me when he saw how upset I looked, since he waived the $50 fee he consultation normally cost.

But it must be the personal preference of almost all women though, if incel men are rejected because of their looks over potential bedroom skill though.