Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

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I think you are wrong there, that nice guys are always rejects/pariahs. Perhaps the real problem is in your real life samples for nice guys v. not?

More than half the guys I dated were considered "nice guys" by those around us. My husband most certainly is a "nice guy." Same is true for most women I know. In fact, probably the most physically beautiful mom at school says that the reason she started dating and eventually married her now husband was that "he was such a nice guy."

So either your definition is wrong or your sample is wrong.

I know in certain situations the jerks always get the girls, but those situations aren't all there is. Most women want to marry nice guys.

In high school, you find the girls going after the big, tough guys. It's a common thing. But this is HIGH SCHOOL.

Once people get to college, they usually grow out of that, and date people whom they are compatible with.

Sorry I was so annoying, Molly. Please forgive me. I only wanted to make a little joke.

I voted "No, only since 1960's (breakdown of traditional values)". The below is speculation, but bear with me.

It really started to happen before that, right around the Roaring Twenties. The Prohibition laid groundwork for underground criminals supplying alcohol. In order to succeed in that world, you need to be a hustler. In other words, a jerk. Since those jerks made tons of money smuggling bathtub gin, the wealth appealed to women. This combined with the Great Depression to work against many hardworking, honest men (a.k.a. nice guys), who lost jobs and became poor, leaving them competing with the wealthier jerks.

What reversed the trend was, ironically, World War II. Many men enlisted in the Army or were drafted. (Women did not do much combat work back then.) Since America's support for WWII was incredibly strong, so was the support for the men fighting in it. Which allowed even the nicest nice guy to be a hero, and by extension become sexually appealing, when he returned home. (Just visualize that famous "War's End Kiss" poster.) The ruthlessness of basic training took off some of the nice guys' niceness as well, and made them rough around the edges, which appealed to some women.

The glory days for nice guys continued through the 1950's. America was booming. Jobs could be found by walking into a business off the street. Families were close and strong. Marriage vows were actually true to their words. Traditional values were going strong. Streets were safe. Food was good-quality. Prices were low. Men were selected for their personal integrity and ability to support a family (or possibly geographic closeness too), rather than for alpha status.

Then came 1960's. Sexual revolution swept the nation. Both men's and women's base instincts bubbled to the surface and boiled over. As a result, men started having sex with every willing taker, and women started going only for alpha males (jerks), leaving betas and omegas (nice guys) to rot in the dust. Decades later, online dating came on the scene. It was deceptively promising for nice guys---because it gave an illusion of a level playing field with jerks---but actually made things worse, by opening doors for nice guys to be judged only on their looks and smooth-talking skills, which is never their strong point. And so, here we are today, in 2015.

^ https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/he ... essive-men

According to this, it's from the beginning of times.

Screw you, OP; I thought I knew a whole bunch of lovely guys who are in happy, long-term relationships, but now it turns out that they don't exist and that half my friends were imaginary.

^Yes, most people get married, nice or not, involuntary celibacy is due to other reasons.

How are nice guys a social pariah if they're the ones women prefer for long term relationships? Does this mean that good girls are also rejects/pariahs, since they're the ones men prefer for long term relationships? And what does this mean for the “undatables” who are too ugly, too obnoxious, too whatever and so society treats them like actual pariahs?

For the poll: I don't think they're pariahs at all, and associating them with that term is overly dramatic.

in the early soviet union marriage laws were anti-family
so
http://www.justfourguys.com/red-pill-ru ... iet-union/

The more irresponsible guys got the majority of the women, and many homeless children were put out on the streets.

The OP assumes that nice guys are pariahs in dating and the only thing up for question is when this started. The research on this subject (I was surprised to actually find research) is all over the place because "nice guy" means different things to different people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy

Although the wiki page starts with this

actual research and with it any chance of a timeline is hampered by this

The research seems to be confounded by some pretty major factors.
1)People can't be neatly divided into groups with opposite traits. For example this research:


Here they have bundled nice/shy/virgin and made the opposite be attractive/fun/sexually experienced. You can't be shy and attractive? You can't be nice and sexually experienced? You can't be a fun virgin? Nevertheless, 54% of women stated a preference for the man who was "nice/shy/virgin". Which brings me to the next problem:

2)who women tell a researcher they prefer and who they are actually dating are two very different things. There may be overlap but the one is not a proxy for the other.

Luckily some researchers got around that problem by looking at actual couples.


I had to look up surgency. Apparently its' a personality trait that bundles cheerfulness/spontaneity/responsiveness/sociability. A man who is cheerful,spontaneous,responsive,social and dominant does not sound like a jerk to me but neither does he sound like the 'nice guy' stereotype which of course leaves out dominance but also leaves out the surgency qualities.

So then there's another problem (3) of how you define the guys in this dichotomy.



The researchers can't truly answer the question of "are nice guys dating pariahs" because "nice guy" seems to mean a million different things with the exception of dominant (which it never means even if in real life a nice man can have true leadership dominance). With that question unanswered (which the OP assumes has already been answered as "yes"), a time line is out of the question.

One researcher agrees with face-of-boo's statement that
The reasearcher's way of saying the exact same thing is


Leaving wikipedia, I found this page which says something I agree with.

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/good-guy-not-nice-guy-lesson-history-mrzs/

Your friends are not imaginary. If they're happy in their relationships, good on them. But many a time, a beta male has no choice but to settle into a relationship available to him. Like when a woman he's not that attracted to shows interest, and he knows it's now or never. (That's how all my past relationships took place.) As opposed to actively choosing the relationship he wants, as alpha males do. That's why I stay away from long-term relationships, because I'm pretty sure it won't be the one I desire most. And since my sex drive plummeted after I turned 30, even sex doesn't make an unsatisfying relationship worth my while.

By the time a nice guy/beta male ends up in a relationship with a woman, it's usually after she's been with a jerk/alpha male, sometimes even after having his kids. So the preference is subjective, since a woman may still subconsciously desire alpha male genes, even when in relationship with a nice guy. She's not a bad person for that; nature just doesn't give a damn about people's feelings.
"Good girls" are rarely, if ever, social pariahs, because there is no alpha/beta/omega divide among women that there is among men. Women have a more-or-less equal chance of finding a man; it may not be the alpha male she desires by evolution, but she has a chance nonetheless. I almost never turn down a woman showing interest in me.

All that said, this divide did not start to actively manifest itself until the 1960's, and did not go mainstream until the 2000's.

And that makes them a dating pariah/reject how exactly? Because I don't see how ending up in a marriage, even with step kids, is a bad thing. Divorces are really common anymore. Split families are really common too. Are you trying to tell me that this is a part of the nice guy phenomenon? I also don't see how subconscious desires have anything to do with it. Women are people, like men, and they don't always act on their desires. If you turn your head to look at a pretty girl passing it doesn't mean you're going to leave your significant other for her, does it?
There is a social divide among females that is similar to the one men gripe about all the time. How are people on here oblivious to that one, but not the male faux-latin scale? But I suppose that's a different question for a different thread.

Nice guys finish last?! Well dangit, i'm out of luck then. No wonder I always finish last on COD online. I just let people shoot me.

It's not that girls don't want nice guys, I think girls don't want needy guys. It is our natural tendency to back down when we sense that someone likes us and we don't like them back. And once your romantic interest has made up their mind that they don't like you, and you try to hit on them, then it's nearly impossible for them to ever be attracted to you.

'like I know i just met u 2 days ago but i'm in love with u and i cant live without you. you complete meeeeeeeeeee.' Limerence is a hell of drug. Just make sure it's not with someone who doesn't know you exist otherwise you'll be heartbroken pretty quick if they dont have the same feelings for you. So enough with listening to crappy love songs or writing crappy poetry all because you're infatuated with "that girl from 6th period".

Of course what do I know? I'm just a martian livin in my moms spaceship.

Silly humans spend thousands and millions of dollars on research, *yawn* they just need to ask the Boo for answers.

My friends are not beta males (they're secure enough not to buy into the whole alpha/beta/omega concept anyway. Which may be why they get girls, because they spend time being interesting and actually talking to girls instead of whining about how women are mean to them because they're so beta.), and their girlfriends/wives are attractive, smart, interesting and nice.




Well, f**k. She's already had a relationship? What a worthless, dried-up old hag.

Not sure why you keep equating "nice" with being beta. They aren't the same. Acting nice because you're afraid to assert yourself isn't the same as actually being a nice person.