Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

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I wish I was a Pi Guy!

You are just so off on many levels, but this definitely caught my eye.

I was always the "nice" girl. People kept telling me that, "you are too nice." And you know what that meant in High School? I was never invited to anything, and not asked out on dates by a single guy in my school. I assumed I must be unattractive, but I've had enough feedback over the years since to know that was not the case.

What was the truth? In my twenties I became close friends with a guy who had been an extremely popular jock in our high school. To start off with, I was sure he had had no idea who I was when we met in our twenties, since we had never interacted in school, and he was older. He told me right off that absolutely he knew who I was, which shocked me. Not just who I was, but things about me. He had respect for me; he was excited to be able to become friends at this point in our lives. One day when I noted how disappointed I was back in high school that I had never been asked to a single dance, you know what he told me? It was because I was too nice. Everyone knew I was a "good" girl. They were busy engaging in risky behaviors (by the time we became friends the guy was recovering from years of addiction) and figured that wasn't me. Geez, it would have helped if someone had just told me that instead of allowing my self-esteem to sink. But no one did, and in the moment I reached many wrong conclusions (pretty much like I see you doing now).

One guy I started dating simply stopped having interest when he met someone on a business trip who he described to me as a "firecracker." And he told me about it, all about her, thinking that was OK, since "obviously" I didn't want what he wanted in a relationship because I was so "nice."

So you really think it never makes a difference for a woman?

What it comes down to is this: nice usually seeks nice. Not because of lack of choice, but because, what a shock, you are actually more likely to share values and want the same things in life. Not nice seeks not nice. Like attracts like. Sure, there are exceptions, because sometimes the right yin and yang requires balance, but that can work both ways. There is no universal bad guys win and good guys lose.

Not to mention, plenty of guys who think they are "nice" actually are not nice, and blame their rejection on the wrong thing, which really distort their perception of what is happening.

Probably typical NTs that smile and greet you in public, but then regularly act rude/evil towards the same people on the internet.

I should amend this to add that things all turned out right in the end. Life has phases and stages and tests, and you go through them to find better things. There are plenty of nice people out there, but some of them take a little longer to come into their own, and until they've done that you aren't going to connect for a relationship. As tempting as it was to conclude that no guy ever likes a nice girl, I didn't; I'm not that pessimistic.

they say they prefer nice guys but really prefer hot men.
its politically correct to prefer nice people. people say what people want to hear to not cause conflict and seem as one with society. men prefer women. any woman. no but really not quite the same for women.



I don't want to be some woman's last choice, better than nothing, he'll provide for the kids guy.
if (kind guys) wasn't good for them then then (kind guys) sure hell ain't later. maybe I(kind guys) want kids and fun times too.

what is the social divide system women have?



yeah sure their career choice had nothing to do with it. bunch of guys do the same and are single. not beleiving in that system isn't the reason they ended up in a relationship.

Nice guy = someone respectful, likes animals, considerate, big heart (my definition)

I believe that a lot of people have their own definition of the term. I also think that some people abuse and hide behind the word. Just because a “nice guy” likes a woman, doesn’t mean that the woman has to like him back, and it doesn’t mean that if it isn’t reciprocated that the guy is a pariah. Life and love is way more complicated than that!

A lot of men that are less attractive hide under the term nice guy, even though they are not and then they expect supermodels to fall for them because they are “nice”. And then they complain that life is unfair, and nice guys are pariah. Maybe the real problem is that they are not really nice guys, or maybe the problem is that they are going after the not so nice girls. Big shocker, not every pretty girl is automatically a nice person! The outside matters, but so does the inside and the latter is far more important in the long run.

What I’m trying to say is don’t hide under a term, don’t use a stereotypical idea as a shield from reality, look in to yourself and at your actions and realize that maybe there are other reasons for why things go wrong or not your way. Hiding will get you nowhere.

It is more important, but how can you tell if they're nice or not? And even if they're nice, it's not enough, you must be visually attracted to that person. Even the nicest person in the world will have a hard time finding a date if he/she isn't very attractive physically and, I don't know about you guys, but I'm sure there's plenty nicer (than me at least) guys out there.

So you are asserting his view somehow, you finished last in high-school because you're too nice.
Probably nice = boring or too safe.

You did prove to him it's not just a male thing, but it's obvious that too much niceness is unattractive.

Uh, no.
Although they'd probably be rude to you. You might like to think about why.




Can you not call all women liars? And men do have standards. If you say they don't, I can go and find a bunch of quotes from you about how you shouldn't have to date people who you're not attracted to (which is true, you shouldn't have to, but don't come out with crap like "men will just take any woman!"
Your lack of success with women is because of factors other than the fact that you're nice.



I never mentioned career choice, although I think you'll find that men with a variety of careers have relationships.
And of course "not believing in that system" isn't why they ended up in relationships, but one big reason why they don't fail at relationships is because they can actually talk to women like f*****g human beings without whining, calling themselves beta, or making sweeping generalisations and then calling women liars when they point out how inaccurate they are.

Only way to find out if they are nice is to talk to them and watch how they act, but I think that beautiful people tend to get away with more crap than ugly people.

Yes physical attraction is important, but it's not all about looks. It has a lot to do with how you present yourself to others, if you choose to walk around hating yourself and believing you are worthless then you will have a hard time attract someone.

And when it comes to the superficial, only a few people are naturally “beautiful”. We can all look better if we put in an effort, but some people deem any effort as unnecessary which is counterproductive if you seek a partner. Most people will go for someone that has enough self-respect to make an effort.

Oh no, this thread was funny at first, now it went another Nice Guy thread.

I knew men who were sexist and whom I heard them saying obnoxious stuff like 'women can't drive well', 'women are ..x and y..', yet they were married, there are plenty of such married men in life. And oh, they whine.

So no, neither of you is right .

I agree. Maybe it works both ways? Once we know that they're nice, maybe they become more attractive to us?


I don't like improving for others. I prefer to improve for myself. That way, when I'm rejected, at least I can feel good about myself.

It's been my experience that nice guys, while a fine dating choice on paper, are boring to a majority of women. Hear me out: I've never knowingly dated a woman with Asperger's, and I only recently was diagnosed myself, but in my life and in my studies it seems that, generally speaking from a clinical point of view, women tend to maintain relationships with men who will maintain a certain amount of drama in their lives. It's novel, it increases levels of excitement in the form of first cortisol then, if things really heat up, adrenaline, and then the intimacy reinforced by the making up process. I think this is where "nice guys" become pariahs, and I am defining "nice guy" as a man who is open, loving, willing to compromise with his partner, takes her into consideration when appropriate, which can all boil down to avoiding conflict.

I avoid conflict. I hate it. I am perfectly capable of dealing with conflict at work, I am known to be a man of "exacting standards", but at home I don't want to fight, I don't want to argue, I want to just be. I find no value in living in the past and I am a verbal thinker so I don't daydream about a future, I just want to live in this moment.

My longest, healthiest relationship and the only time I can say I have ever say I was probably "in love", hit a slump fairly early on. She told me that I am incredibly predictable, so I had the idea to create a controlled amount of conflict in the relationship. I wouldn't be malicious, my goal was not to be hurtful, but I made sure that every so often I would create some kind of conflict that was nothing serious, but enough to elicit a heightened emotional state that was out of the ordinary, i.e. novelty. We ended up staying together for eight years, and the revelation of my Asperger's diagnosis filled in all the blanks that led to our break-up. Had I not shown up late once in a while, bailed out on some banal events here and there, shown up smelling like liquor when I shouldn't have once in a while, we probably wouldn't have lasted three years.

I agree with that completely, nice people become nicer looking and unpleasant people become uglier, at least it usually works that way for me.



What kind of improvements do you mean? I meant things like good hygiene, healthy physique (not anything bizarre or ridiculous), nice clothes and so on. I fell more confident if I take care of these things, I dress nicely to look better, but it is in part for others.

When you take care of your outwards, then people are generally nicer to you, so in the long run you win on presenting a nice picture to the world. It might not be a nice idea, because everyone should be treated the same way always no matter what they look like, but that is not how the world works.

But again I’m talking about the basics; I’m not advocating people to take extreme measures to please others. But I also think that it is very important not to except failure, because people will sense this in you and then avoid you.

Maybe for some but I disagree with that it would be true for a majority of women, then again I have a diagnosis (but I refuse to let that define me), I have AS but I also have my own personality. For me drama is unattractive, I need none of that. My partner is a nice guy and I would want it no other way. I think people are sometimes together with the wrong person, love alone is not always enough, you also need mutual respect and friendship.