Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

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Sly, you're a virgin aren't you?

Well, I can't speak for him but I'm guessing that he doesn't need a woman to date him, since he's already married.

I've actually had quite a few relationships, and I'm married now.

Why should somebody date me? Because I'm worth it, that's why!

I'm not an Adonis. I'm not an "alpha" male. I'm a pretty regular guy who happens to be short and chubby.

*rude gesture*

I bet those men didn't spend most of their time whining about women, though, and twisting every little thing around to make it seem as though they were the most miserable, downtrodden person ever.

Oh, surely they don't whine like this in front of women, but when they're in presence of men, they whine constantly.

It's something that you ladies here forget or simply don't even know about: A lot (in fact MOST) of men behave around men differently than the way they behave around a group of both genders. When they are around men: the topics differ, more secrets shared, the way of talking differ, more f- and the like words significantly increase in use, sexist/macho talk significantly increases and sometimes...whining/complaining about women....my gawd, the whining.

All of those disappear *puff* if there's a presence of a lady in the same room unless if she's one of those very rare "guys' girl" for the group.

Here on L&D, men behave as if mostly are around other men, or they just simply don't feel the need to behave differently.

My previous supervisor in my previous job was typically like this, he had a typical macho thinking, and he kept whining about his wife and the responsibilities he had toward his two daughters ...etc. We were used to joke by saying something like 'oh no, here we go again...'.
What he was good at tho, is in Sales and pretending, even my CEO told me once he is so double-faced.

There are a lot of married men who whine.


Translation of your post: Sly, her post was mostly about you (and about others, but you in specific), she's saying that you spend most of your time whining and twisting little things to make it seem as you are the most miserable, downtrodden person ever.

Hi Kaytekay.

"Nice Guys" - oh please....

Nice guys compliment. They do nice things. They are considerate. They'll give a back rub and they'll give you an orgasm. They'll find opportunities to do nice things for you. They'll let you do nice things for them. They are where they say they are. They don't feel sorry for themselves and they don't make excuses.

Nice guys aren't boring. They're nice enough to go with you to something you really want to do when maybe it's not their first choice. They're nice enough to actually engage with the activity and enjoy it. They don't sulk and moan and ruin your fun. Maybe they don't go twice, but they do go! Nice guys don't pick fights. Nice guys don't bring women down. Nice guys apologise if they let you down, and they will sometimes, because they're human after all.

Nice guys support. Nice guys don't wrap themselves up in video games when you've had a hard day. Nice guys ask for support when they need it. Nice guys know that nice gals want to be there for their fellas when they're down and want to be there for them when they're up, too!

Nice guys don't assume all women are the same - they get to know you as a person. Nice guys don't think women only go after bad boys - they feel confident in their own attractiveness as a person. Nice guys will listen to you because they want to know what you're thinking because they think you're an interesting person.

Nice guys don't make distinctions and broad generalisations of alpha and beta males. They know that we're human and not wolves or chimps.

Nice guys don't settle for a woman they think they can get, they settle down with a woman they love. They don't pick a spouse and then resent her because they think she's less than he 'deserves' or resent her because she's the poor option that he thinks he deserves.

Nice guys don't worry about being a nice guy.

OP - you have some very strange views about what makes a man a nice guy. You have some very strange views about women - including your 'future wife'. You will never be happy if you cling to these ideas.

+1 and QFT.

Lately I've had a fixation on the Biblical Golden Rule. It's the be-all and end-all of human relations. If you understand the context, you know that Jesus referred to evil, selfish human nature. In short, evil, selfish people know how to give good things to people who ask. He was using this to make a theological point, that is, that if evil people can at least do this much, you can ask God to supply your needs and He will. That's how He prefaces the Golden Rule. People are selfish, so appeal to their selfishness. Make their needs your #1 priority and when you have a need, all you have to do is ask.

If you want to succeed in business, politics, popularity, marriage/family, or just not being alone on a Saturday night, follow the rule.

The Nice Guys™ so often mentioned here do not follow the rule. They are "nice" because deep down they are thinking that being nice to others enslaves others to their whims and desires. From the 48 Laws of Power:
Basically, nobody wants to be a slave and will resent you for turning them into slaves. A smart person will respond "I don't owe you Jack $#!+." You win people through generosity. True generosity asks for nothing in return.

Men who "win" women do so by investing in their (women's) interests. An investment is not exactly the same thing as a loan. It's a gift built on the promise that one is committed to the success of the other. When the other person succeeds, you succeed by extension. When the other person is successful, he or she will return "dividends" on the investment because both persons share in that interest. NiceGuys™ are too busy selling their stock at a loss because they don't care to wait for the long term to get anything meaningful out of the relationship. Successful investment in the financial world means long-term diversification, accepting that there will be more losses than gains and hoping the gains will be enough to at least break even.

If you want the promise of love from MOOS, you have to love them all without condition. You WILL succeed, it's only a matter of time. The one success you're looking for will far outweigh the losses of the past. But you have to give it time.

Finally, and since I've already invoked 48 Laws, here's another:


Most people are aware of this on some level. Miserable people spread misery and cannot be made happy. NiceGuys™ are miserable people. Is it a surprise women avoid them?

Incidentally, I'm aware that I'm an unfortunate person. I've learned to avoid people and situations when I know this is going to come out, or I could easily screw things up. I also warn people of any insecurities I'm feeling. If I feel confident about something, I'll engage others. But I keep to myself if I know I'm just going to be a wrecking ball. I know what areas I'm successful in and I stick with it, which is why I even have friends. What I DON'T do is whine and complain about everything that goes wrong in my life. Nobody needs that. Nobody cares about that. Rather, I focus on using my misfortune to make people smile and laugh at the fool I am. Miserable people just want to make other people cry. Is it any wonder people avoid dating miserable folks?

I mean reading romance novels. I mean I like reading but I won't read books I know I won't like.




Yes, but happy and fortunate don't need generosity. They already have what they need. Why would you help a person who doesn't need or want (?) your help?


I know married people who suffer from depression.

You missed the point. If you associate with miserable people, they will make you miserable. If you hang out with lucky and happy people, you'll feel happier yourself.


True. Everyone has a story.

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!! ! Excuse me while I wipe down my monitor screen with a paper towel. I accidentally spit on it while laughing. OK, it's clean now.

I don't feel happier or luckier when associating with happy or lucky people. If that were true, I'd be rich from sitting next to people who win jackpots in casinos. Also, I used to be friends with a guy who was the alpha-est of alpha males. Women practically stood in line to have sex with him. I don't know if it had to do with his looks or his tactics, but that's how he was. And every time I asked him to teach me his methods, he refused to tell me.

I understood why he did that, and wasn't too ticked off at him for that. It's an evolutionary instinct for alpha males to keep betas and omegas away from "their" women, present or future. Even friendship wasn't enough to override the instinct. Although, I did briefly date a girl who liked him that he turned down, because she wasn't within his standards. I guess that's why you want me spending time around happy people; the trickle-down economics will get small scraps of other's happiness to me as well. Or maybe happiness is contagious like that only for NT's.

Speaking of which, I guess it's also why the rich don't want even one poor person living in their neighborhoods. They must think they'll get infected with poverty. Maybe the Occupy Wall Street protesters should have been sneezing on people coming out of the Stock Exchange building .

This a thousand times. ^^^

Best post in the thread. It's a shame the OP didn't read it.

I agree with Geekonychus....excellent post, Elkclan.

These are the kinds of things miserable people say.

Um... Earth to AngelRho! I'm an aspie, and a beta male to boot. Do you actually expect me to be a happy person?

Anyway, we're all going off on a tangent here. The purpose of the thread is to discuss and debate when in history it stopped being OK to be a nice guy.

Earth to Aspie1: I'm an aspie, too. What's your point? If you want to be a happy person, be a happy person. Do what happy people do. If you want to be miserable, be miserable. Do what miserable people do. That alpha/beta thing is just in your head, anyway. It's a poor reflection of reality. If you want to be an "alpha," whatever that means, then change your behavior.