The BrutallyHonestThreataboutsocializationwithNTs
13 Jul 2009, 5:51 am
Sorry, for no space between words of the title, it's just that I would have exceeded the limit.
Anyway, with that disclaimer out of the way here are the brutally honest truths
1.) social status is EVERYTHING. If you don't have it, it's your problem
2.) Compassion and empathy only exist to gain social status not to be helpful
3.) If your family didn't care about you, nobody gives a damn
4.) There is no such thing as equality, it's all a social status game
5.) Most guys want sex from girls and all girls want primarily is social status. Love is a glorious and grandiose romanticization of the reality that they are only in a relationship for sex.
6.) Sex is the ultimate prize for having high status
7.) There is no such thing as individuality in any culture. You must conform to the conventions or be subject to alienation
8.) Social hierarchies exist, and most Aspies would be at the bottom, so forget about having sex
9.) Most people are only out for themselves. Situational awareness is self-interest. Altruism is only a social status game
10.) NTs don't care for brutal honesty because it constitutes being mean which for the purposes of this thread is defined as "anything which challenges the hierachy, ego or social status or flounts the conventions of the society".
11.) If you want anything, you are on your own. Ex: if you want love, you have to love yourself first, if you want respect, you have to be respectful, if you want people to believe in you, you have to believe in yourself.
12.) People will only help you out of self-interest or social status concerns. They don't give a damn about you
13.) If you say what your goals are in your life, you are effectively stating your social status
14.) Democracy doesn't exist so stop criticizng your superiors in the hierarchy.
fiddlerpianist
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13 Jul 2009, 6:49 am
I'm the first to say it's important and it's hard to resist being drawn into the status network, but it isn't EVERYTHING, and it's only a guiding principle to a minority of people. And even some of those will try to help you get a higher social status if for whatever reason they take a personal liking to you.
Not true. I'd say the primary purpose of compassion and empathy can't be to gain social status, and there are all kinds of better and easier ways if getting social status is your goal. Compassionate people tend to be less popular in the "mainstream", although there are plenty of other social groups where compassion and empathy is a (or the) central value--just because of compassion and empathy. They're ends in themselves, in exactly the same way as is one's own pleasure and well-being.
I give a damn about plenty of people who have been abused by their families. I have found the most loving attitudes in people who are not related to me, and their generosity and support has gone a long way to helping me in my life. I find this comment highly offensive--you seem to be implying that my friends aren't worth caring about, or at least shouldn't seem that way.
Everyone's pain feels the same. Some people don't feel everyone's pain. As someone who does, it can be difficult and confusing to love someone and ache for someone to feel better when you know they would not and have not done the same for you and for other people with low social status (according to them--and individual status seekers are often the ones who define another person's status as low, so it could hardly be said to be universal or even binding within the original status-seeker's friend group), and that is a real feeling.
Most guys have a sex drive. It tends to be very compelling and frustrating for them. This is not to say that they don't truly love girls and want to engage with them on a ton of other levels--the guys I've dated have often just been looking for an anchor, someone to look forward to, someone to be comforted by, and someone who entertains them and impresses them, is smart and beautiful and exciting.
Girls primarily want love. They want to be loved--emotionally: most girls have a sex drive too, but it tends to be lower than males' and based more on the situation being conducive to sexuality. Girls also want someone to be there for them, to hug and cuddle with them, to listen to their emotional stresses, to let them seem valued, and also to look pretty and be talented. I don't think they want to associate with talent out of a need for social status. That may be the motivation for a few, but it's much weaker for most than is the inner need and longing for something that impresses them, that is beautiful and expands their horizons by being smart and educated or traveled or witty or whatever. It is the inner sense of being caught up in someone else who is god-like or goddess-like, not the way other people will look at you when you are.
Don't forget that there's plenty of neurotypical asexuals who still strongly desire and form romantic relationships. I'm pretty much one of them.
In a Darwinian way, yes, I suppose it is. But remember we're all (even the very low-status ones) the descendants of people who were pretty much like us but still managed to have high status. Imagine the human species if ONLY the dominant people reproduced! You can be a total sleaze and get all the sex you want. Many people refrain from that because they want to keep up their reputation--so obviously social concerns can trump sexual ones, so the ultimate prize for doing a good job socially can't be sex. Perhaps it's happiness, which may involve sex, but there's a lot more to it--like love and an overall sense of well-being and acceptance in a social support network and the chance to raise children and so on.
I don't shave my legs or armpits or arms, which is unheard of for women around here, and no one says anything or even treats me any differently. I did it mainly just to test this hypothesis, which is bunk. People alienate you if they (a) don't know how to treat you and (b) don't have the time/energy to find out, or (c) they simply aren't motivated to be around you because they don't get much pleasure out of interacting with you.
The best way to avoid alienation is by making someone happy in a reciprocal relationship where they make you happy, too. It can be unconventional as anything, and it seems to me like a huge percentage of interpersonal bonds are--things that never show up in the cultural mythology that is TV and popular fiction. Things that might even seem "creepy" if you're too attached to socialization. But they're what make so many people's lives meaningful.
TMI, but I've had sex with an Aspie, even though I'm pretty much asexual. I enjoyed pleasuring my partner and kinda wish I could have avoided becoming psychologically disengaged and ending the relationship.
And, again, yes, social hierarchies exist, but they're mostly illusory and don't correlate too well with the sorts of situations all too many people find themselves living, with odd relationships all around the hierarchy, and personal intimacy and connectedness mattering more than any sort of "rule" or status level. People who become rich and famous often keep friends from before who would seem to be from completely different walks of life now. And in any case, the majority of people are going to be in the fat bottom part of the pyramid, not just Aspies. The question is whether they can see this and be accepting rather than strike out to try to trick themselves into feeling like they've been elevated just a little.
Aspies don't face isolation primarily because the neurotypical world is a cruel, emotionally shallow and entirely self-serving place (which it is, but not to the degree you're suggesting, and not among "real" or "ordinary" people). They face isolation because of difficulties navigating the NT terrain, and because it's further difficult for NTs to help or even to figure out that it's necessary to help.
(I don't mean to downplay anyone's history of being discriminated against. I know it's a seriously injurious thing. But that doesn't make all NTs unfriendly.)
Altruism is behavior arising from the sense that another person is as real and important as oneself. This sense does exist. In fact, it's probably a part of situational awareness, although I'll admit I'm not familiar with that concept and just skimmed the intro to the wikipedia article.
Few people are only out for themselves. I think those are the ones we call "antisocial (or psychopathic) personality disorder" types. Most people are at least going to look out for "their own" (close friends, family, members of some group) and try not to harm others if they can help it, and a very large percentage of people want to look out for everyone, even if they're confused about how to do so and so follow the default course of behavior that does not result in maximum utility for all.
Who says NTs don't care for brutal honesty? Sure, a lot of 'em don't, but then there's the rest of us who thrive on it. Compassion isn't an illusion that merely preserves the hierarchy of society and is embedded in a convention. It's something many of us feel towards others and have directed towards ourselves every or most every day--neurotypicals and autistics alike. There are many evil, destructively self-serving forces in society, but compassion isn't one of them, and it's also very strong.
Well said. You can kinda make it like a bird hopping around with a broken wing if you don't do the "yourself" things first, and some people will kinda help you along, but you won't really get what you want.
Wrong.
That is an interesting comment. I used to confuse the two--stating my goals as something I wanted to achieve in order to feel like I belonged to a "better" echelon of people. My goals in life now would be more effectively a statement of my idealism, worry, and compassion.
No, please do keep criticizing your superiors. ^_^ Current forms of democracy are indeed partial and flawed, but we gain a lot out of them, and the vigor of dissenting voices.
13 Jul 2009, 7:27 am
Yes, society is a big status game, which aspies are pretty bad at. There are many ways to cheat the system though.
You can join organized activities, which enables you to enjoy social interaction without being fully accepted. You can meet sexual partners online & bypass having to deal with their protective networks. You can meet people very different from you, where it's easier to gain acceptance since you're already not like them & they don't see you as a threat in their social circle.
It's a lot harder for aspies, but luckly we can be smart enough to find our own way.
13 Jul 2009, 7:30 am
Honestly, I am sorry that you are so bitter and sexually frustrated, and I hope that the fictitious list that you concocted makes you feel better. By the way, the compassion that I am feeling for you at this moment has nothing to do with any attempt to gain social status, which I couldn't care less about.
13 Jul 2009, 7:39 am
You couldn't at least try and give some supporting arguments for these asinine and cynical declaratives?
I talk all the time about the evils and abuses that are present in our world. I have a core belief that all of my own abuses, those perpetrated by me, for me, and against me has not shaken. I believe that every human being is doing the best they know how to the best of their ability. Everybody just wants to survive, and the world is a scary place. When people act from a place of fear, they act without rationality. Fear is a great motivator to seek change, fear is a horrible planner of positive changes.
I especially like the part about how I should just forget about having sex, no thanks I think I'd rather keep the memories of a lot of great times. When I participate in social hierarchies I'd have to put in an active effort NOT to end up somewhere near the top. That's just my personality type. Exception to the rule? In my placement, maybe, in the sex having, certainly not.
Sex is the ultimate prize for having sex. The price for having high status is having high responsibility for other peoples lives. Many people choose to abuse this high status in order to get sex or some other thing they want, and an important part of that process is a form of listing of grievances like your own. The declaration that it is everybody around you who is carrying out evil, rather than the recognition that you are entering into participation in the evils of the world. It is possible to have a fulfilling relationship with humanity as a whole without allowing yourself to be abused nor entering into the abuse of others.
There is individuality in every culture, some cultures are more accepting of the public expression of these individualities. Many Americans value individuality just for its own sake. All things are equal, equality is an essential truth. People may make claims to superiority, but it is only you who can allow yourself to be diminished, all creation is necessary to existence and therefore of equal importance. Somebody always gives a damn.
Most guys want sex from girls, some guys want sex from guys, and a small minority don't want sex. Most girls want sex from guys, some girls want sex from girls, and a small minority don't want sex. Often guys want sex a bit more often than girls, but in my experience this is largely cultural conditioning. And previously sexually repressed girls that become sexually freed as women can be quite tiring in their constant sexual needs.
My goal in life is to help others be self-actualized entities. Can I have my social status and cookie now?
13 Jul 2009, 8:07 am
There most certainly is individuality, and if you're not an individual, then people will call you a sheep and look down on you! Don't you dare care what people think, or they'll think you're just one of those people who cares about nothing but what other people thing!
13 Jul 2009, 9:37 am
IMHO OP's post feels like an "outside-in" point of view. I think I used to have a very similar perspective on it. It seems to me that OP is trying to unify their concept of sociality, but is overly focused on certain details thereof. My perspective is more along the lines of a continuum (aren't all things part of one?), with different people acting in different ways with a great deal of variation. Yes, some people fit and act as these 14 points would predict they would, but there are others who don't.
13 Jul 2009, 9:46 am
I read the number of posts in the thread and it appears you have the eleventh post in the thread. Then I realized you meant number eleven in the OP. Silly me...
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