The US is heading toward a grave historical mistake.

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The Inuyasha fallacy: "Inuyasha agrees with him, therefore he must be wrong!" What a wonderful display of logic you have there.

That is a fallacy (but a pretty good heuristic)
But that is not what Vex seems to be saying.
Agreeing with Ina does not make you wrong
but if you are going to agree with him people are going
to think you are wrong.
they will be right most of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_o ... estine.png As far as I can tell, this map doesn't seem to cover the whole of Palestine.


Aha, so a foreign power is setting the dictates of what should be done with Palestine, again.


Most of the land of which was civil ownership and therefore not really designed to be a separate country. And even then, that didn't give Israelis to operate ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian Arabs during the war. The declaration of independece of a country whose actual extent in ownership barely covered a strip of land in the middle of Canaan turned in to a war of expansion and expulsion of the native people on account of religion and an excuse about foreign Arab powers.


Apparently, you are the one who is ignorant of his own sources. It didn't take me long to shoot that whole 'land ownership' thing in the foot.

They cover than in association fallacy I think. Anyways, let's not do any pettifogging gentlemen. Just because someone agrees with Inu doesn't mean they are wrong. Let's leave it at that. As for why what they think usually is actually wrong, it shouldn't be taxing

Gedrene,

As soon as you descend to the rhetoric of "stolen land" you invite the question of who stole from whom--and that argument will take us back millenia. 1948 is not some magical starting point before which all sins are absolved.

I live, and work, in the world of realpolitik. International law doesn't really matter. "Theft" doesn't matter. The only factors that will move states are: money, domestic politics and arms. (Generally speaking, in that order). The UNO and all of its organs (including the ICJ) are toothless. International Conventions are useful--but only insofar as we all choose to abide by them--the moment that it becomes in our national best interest to ignore them, they are worth no more than the paper that they are printed on.

So far, you have participated in a game of passing the blame around. And in the end, it doesn't matter whether either of us is correct, because we have allowed the conversation to remain firmly placed in irrelevancy. You might be entirely right, and Israel might exist entirely on stolen land. So let's say that I concede that point. Where does that put us? It makes no difference; Israel is a geopolitical fact and it cannot be erased. There is no means by which the illegality of Israeli possession of land can be undone, other than through Israel acquiesence, or the use of force.

Does it matter whether or not the question is irrelevant? I think it does--desperately so. I believe that miring the conversation in irrelevancy is dangerous, because it gives Israel time to alter the status quo. Between 1967 and 1977 it didn't really matter--might made right, the PLO were terrorists and the West Bank was an Israel possession (especially after Black September). Israeli settlement activities were generally seen as exercises in domestic security. But suddenly, in 1977, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty and Israel agreed to hand back the Sinai (ripping up Israeli settlements in the process). Suddenly the West Bank was "back in play." And that meant that Israel had to begin looking for a new paradigm.

From my perspective, anger over 1948 is not only misplaced, its dangerous. Instead, I suggest that this is what you should be angry about: so long as productive negotiations are held to a standtill because people are sniping at each other over irrelevancies, then Israel will be free continue to build houses and walls--to the detriment of the Palestinians. Every day that passes serves to further normalize the Jewish presence in the West Bank.

So, are you interested in finding a durable and lasting peace, or are you interested in scoring points and taking potshots at Israel? If the latter, then I have no time for you.

But if the former, then stop talking about what's wrong with Israel, and start talking about how Israel and Palestine can make peace with each other--a peace that both of them can live with.

Ideally, Israel will be bought off, using Saudi cash. Some settlers will be displaced back to Israel proper, and the Palestinians will fall heir to some new infrastructure built by the Israelis. Where the actual line will fall is unclear, but certainly Fatah seems to believe that they are close to an understanding. Let's work towards giving effect to such an understanding, rather than demonizing either of the parties.

It will never happen as long as the Palestinians dream of wiping out the Jews.

ruveyn

here here.

Explains how you guys still can't bother to read a simple 4 page article and instead jump to attack me.

Face the facts, you and Vexcalibur have personified my opinion of Liberals, I have been called Nazi, Racist, Homophobe, and who knows what else I have been called behind my back by the two of you and your "friends."

What is even more ironic when you guys rant about Herman Cain saying much of the country is brainwashed, your comments in this thread have just proved Herman Cain to be right.

If Hermann Cain's 999 plan goes into effect, the sales tax would be raised to such an exorbitant rate that poor Americans would be especially hard hit. Not surprising, this is from a man who says if you're not rich, or not employed, blame yourself.
By the way, I never once called you a Nazi, or a racist. As for homophobe - well, I don't believe for a minute that you hate and fear gay people, but I do recall you taking anti-gay political stands, for I presume, religious reasons.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I didn't mention you for a reason Kraichgauer...

However, Cain's 9-9-9 plan would have some safeguards like the 2/3s majority in the Senate and the fact it is so simplistic that it would be well within everyone's attention span to realize that taxes are being hiked and people in elected office would likely be seeing pink slips next election.

I thank you for your courtesy.
I still believe that the 999 plan is unworkable and too hard on the poor- if it's even implemented despite a Cain victory.
But elected officials would be voted out of office when people realize they're being taxed? So, you're advocating that poor and middle class people should be free from taxation, as they (we) don't have the means of paying?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

No, I'm saying they'd be voted out of office if they raised taxes. By keeping everything simple, it makes it hard for lawmakers to insert in these little loopholes, cause people would realize that the tax system is being monkeyed with.

Yes, it is being monkeyed with. By corporations and super rich individuals who squirm through loopholes to avoid paying taxes.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Kraichgauer think about how many pages the current tax code is, it makes it very easy to insert these loopholes.

Now imagine if that tax code was thrown out and Herman Cain's plan is put in place which would probably be about a page long if that.

I don't think it would be as easy to insert in these little loopholes cause they would probably be noticed don't you think...

There have been plans to simplify the tax code in the past. One I remember involved being able to do your taxes on a card length form. That simplified card ended up increasing in size pretty quick. I personally think a simplification of the tax code is a pipe dream, regardless if there's good intent behind it. Then there's the simple fact that the poor would get stuck with a tax bill they can ill afford to pay under Cain's plan.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Here is how you do it.

Line 1. What is your total income from all sources.
Line 2. 0.25 x Line 1

Remit amount on Line 2. Thank you.

ruveyn