Were Nice Guys Always the Pariah?

Post Reply New Topic

Every woman I know loves nice guys. Maybe it's just the way rural Southerners are.

To AngelRho: What you say about marriage and divorce is not love but a threat.

It's neither. It's an agreement.

Seriously, what ever happened to love being unconditional? Whatever happened to people being together "no matter what"? The problem with marriage for most people, in my opinion, is people say a lot of stuff about romantic love and commitment, but they flake out when the hard stuff hits. If that's all marriage amounts to, why get married?

As to being a threat…again, for us it was an agreement. Let's suppose it IS a threat. If more people viewed it that way, would more or fewer people get married?

For us, there are no such things as "irreconcilable differences," and no divorce should go uncontested. It's a cold reality for us, and part of that is due to our past work experiences. We both used to work for lawyers. Either one of us at any time could type up petitions for divorce. We saw first hand what people did on the legal side of divorce proceedings. We know all the tricks and all the counter-attacks. My wife is well aware of how to get rid of me at any time if she wanted to, as much as I'm aware of how easy it is to file for divorce. We both know all the legal and psychological tactics both parties employ to coerce the other into cooperation with NFD's. The fact that most people fall for these tactics is appalling.

Incidentally--if someone hands you divorce papers, wipe your butt with them if you don't agree but would rather reconcile. Any half-way decent lawyer, any lay person who has the time to spend in law libraries and at the chancery clerk's office can bury a contentious spouse in so much paperwork it'll take a decade to dig out of. If you want to fight a NFD, you start by documenting every attempt throughout the proceedings you've made to reconcile. You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up. There have been divorce cases where one partner could demonstrate that he or she was driven to committing adultery because of the actions of the other spouse, or it can be demonstrated that both spouses were cheating. But if both parties have kept their noses clean, as long as one party continues to do so, the spouse fighting the divorce can stick a private investigator on the other until he or she slips up. It's usually just a matter of time. So you get one lawyer on the phone with the other, inform him you have the evidence, and you see if continuing is really in the best interests of the other. If they persist, you slap a contested divorce for grounds lawsuit on the offending spouse, take the kids, take all of his or her possessions (whatever would have been joint property held in common), and get child and possibly spousal support (depending on the laws in the jurisdiction). You take them to the cleaners. And since you have the evidence, you go ahead and file a civil suit against whoever he or she is cheating with for loss of affection (not available in all jurisdictions).

It's not about threats. It's about protecting your rights under the law. For my wife and I, marriage isn't a game. People should learn to keep promises. Enough said.

"You keep throwing paperwork every step of the way and make that person's life a living hell until he or she gives in and agrees to try to make up"

Or you could just try to be a good spouse.

What you're describing is abuse by legal means. Why would you want to torture this person that you want to stay married to? This is partly the nightmare scenario that keeps me in an a desperately unhappy marriage. Sometimes I think maybe I'm just engaging in catastrophic thinking, but then I read something like this and I know my husband is partly keeping me so emotionally beaten down so that I can't escape this hell of a marriage.

I agree with Elkclan. If you really love someone you wouldn't psychologically beat them down to make them do what you want.

If you're being a good spouse…and by that, I mean if BOTH parties are being a good spouse, then there's nothing to worry about, right? The thing is, I don't verbally, mentally, or physically abuse my wife. We have a family night once a month, I cook on Friday nights so we don't have the extra expense of going out for pizza but can still enjoy "junk food" once a week that she doesn't have to cook after she's worked late. If there are relationship problems/concerns, we talk it out as it arises, we have a weekly ritual where we review the past week and get a game plan for the next so that nothing catches us by surprise. She's very good to me. I'm not a perfect husband by any stretch, but I do try to look after my family. These kinds of scenarios aren't, as far as we're concerned, even really relevant to us. But she has told me if I try to leave, she'll have me committed.

Look…the paperwork thing in divorce proceedings is simply a means of fighting something one spouse doesn't agree to. You can call it legal abuse, but filing for divorce is abusive, too. NFD's don't look beyond the person filing the papers. It's selfish. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to tacitly allow anyone to screw me over like that. I want to work things out. And if you just want out to be selfish and make horrible choices you know good and well will hurt me and the rest of YOUR family, then I'll do what I have to do. But I'm not going to let a divorce go uncontested. You have a right to protect yourself and seek justice under the law. I can see how you would think it's abusive. But that view doesn't consider that there are TWO sides in divorce proceedings. If my wife is trying to harm me by dissolving the marriage when I feel that any differences we have are perfectly reconcilable, I shouldn't be made to feel that I just have to go along with it. I'm a person, too.


Honestly, I'd taken the better part of 30 minutes writing a big response when I thought better about it. If you really are in an abusive situation, take him to the cleaners. Document everything. Hidden cameras. Audio. Whatever it takes. If he's giving you garbage and that's why you want out, you don't have to take it.

The legal aspect of it only works for an uncontested NFD. That's where you can have a regular War of the Roses (movie, highly recommended). If you can demonstrate that your mental/emotional health has suffered, his behavior towards you has affected your ability to work, etc., you can probably sue him on grounds.

If the truth is actually you're just tired of being with the same guy, he's actually very good to you, and there's no actual abuse going on AND he vehemently doesn't want to end the marriage, then you'd have to learn to deal.

But…if I may be honest here…if he's giving you a hard time at home and making you feel stuck, I'd say the chances are pretty good he's got something going on outside the home. I don't know that for a fact, and I know I'm wrong about a lot of things. If you're looking for a way to slap him back through the justice system, you probably don't have that far to look. What happens a lot is someone will be cheating and they project their own faults on their spouse. The spouse will, under advise of a lawyer, ask for a NFD just to get out of the marriage and take her life back. If there's cheating going on and it can be proven, that gives her a little leverage, so he'll most likely comply because that means he gets to stay with the other woman and keep almost all his money. If that were the case, what YOU would want to do is sue on grounds of adultery, take him to cleaners, take the money, take the house, take everything and kick him to the curb. Once the money is gone and he has to pay you and the kids almost an entire paycheck every month, the other woman will fly back from whence she came. Why? Because even though you initiated the proceedings, you have permanently inserted yourself into his life. No woman will ever want him after that. It would be just like having two wives. And while I think that would kinda cool, the reality of it isn't that much fun.

I don't really condone divorce. I hate the very idea of it. But if your marriage is in trouble, you do NOT just have to sit there and take it. You do have options. You need to work your issues with your husband out. You can't let this keep happening. It will eventually break you. Work things out and do the best you can. You got married for a reason, after all. And if he's really causing all the problems here, it's just a matter of time before the scum floats up to the top. NFD's can tie you up for months if not years. With NFD and the paper wars that ensue, eventually SOMEONE is going to screw up. Cut men completely out of your life until the final decree. Don't even LOOK at another man. If he's just throwing paperwork at you hoping you'll blink first, just keep hanging on. Either he'll get tired of it or he'll do something stupid, assuming he's the kind of guy you say he is. When that happens…NAIL HIM.

If he gets tired of it and he DOESN'T screw up, a final decree will eventually go into effect by default. Either way, you're divorced.

Oh, and FYI--if he's really abusive and you are in a situation you feel you can't get away from him, it's common for a spouse, usually the woman, to get a TRO (temporary restraining order). The way most courts work, you type out a motion for TRO and an order for TRO (which is cut/paste the motion with only slightly different language). You'll also need to find someone to be your process server, and you'll need a corresponding certificate of service. You'll need to tell your server to go in, hand over the papers, get out, and don't say a word. If things get so bad you have to put him in jail, you can file a motion to convert the TRO to a permanent injunction. Judges don't like permanent injunctions, usually the TRO is enough to get the job done. You can do all this yourself, of course, but it's always best to work with a lawyer.

It's not all about love, though. I mean, love is probably the biggest and strongest component of our marriage. It is by far not the ONLY component.

People who have done no wrong deserve justice, too. I won't get my way here, I know that…but comparatively few people actually take marriage very seriously. That disturbs me.