Asperger's Syndrome and Narcissistic Personality Disorder
azalynn
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 6 May 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 69
Location: California, USA
I think most people, AS or otherwise, desire approval and admiration to some degree. However, I would theorize that the AS individual wants recognition for things s/he has actually accomplished -- whereas the narcissist wants admiration simply for existing. I get very uncomfortable if I am praised for something I don't feel I contributed very much to. The narcissist, on the other hand, is likely to take all praise as something s/he is inherently entitled to.
Narcissism is only a superficial, outward love and can truly be a disorder. Most people do not like a Narcissist.
I think a common thread is that Narcissists and autties tend to be very egocentric, and this might lead to a misdiagnosis or common behavioral traits.
Asperger's Disorder is often misdiagnosed as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, though evident as early as age 3 (while pathological narcissism cannot be safely diagnosed prior to early adolescence).
In both cases, the patient is self-centered and engrossed in a narrow range of interests and activities. Social and occupational interactions are severely hampered and conversational skills (the give and take of verbal intercourse) are primitive. The Asperger's patient body language - eye to eye gaze, body posture, facial expressions - is constricted and artificial, akin to the narcissist’s. Nonverbal cues are virtually absent and their interpretation in others lacking.
Yet, the gulf between Asperger's and pathological narcissism is vast.
The narcissist switches between social agility and social impairment voluntarily. His social dysfunctioning is the outcome of conscious haughtiness and the reluctance to invest scarce mental energy in cultivating relationships with inferior and unworthy others. When confronted with potential Sources of Narcissistic Supply, however, the narcissist easily regains his social skills, his charm, and his gregariousness.
Many narcissists reach the highest rungs of their community, church, firm, or voluntary organization. Most of the time, they function flawlessly - though the inevitable blowups and the grating extortion of Narcissistic Supply usually put an end to the narcissist's career and social liaisons.
The Asperger's patient often wants to be accepted socially, to have friends, to marry, to be sexually active, and to sire offspring. He just doesn't have a clue how to go about it. His affect is limited. His initiative - for instance, to share his experiences with nearest and dearest or to engage in foreplay - is thwarted. His ability to divulge his emotions stilted. He is incapable or reciprocating and is largely unaware of the wishes, needs, and feelings of his interlocutors or counterparties.
Inevitably, Asperger's patients are perceived by others to be cold, eccentric, insensitive, indifferent, repulsive, exploitative or emotionally-absent. To avoid the pain of rejection, they confine themselves to solitary activities - but, unlike the schizoid,not by choice. They limit their world to a single topic, hobby, or person and dive in with the greatest, all-consuming intensity, excluding all other matters and everyone else. It is a form of hurt-control and pain regulation.
Thus, while the narcissist avoids pain by excluding, devaluing, and discarding others - the Asperger's patient achieves the same result by withdrawing and by passionately incorporating in his universe only one or two people and one or two subjects of interest. Both narcissists and Asperger's patients are prone to react with depression to perceived slights and injuries - but Asperger's patients are far more at risk of self-harm and suicide.
The use of language is another differentiating factor.
The narcissist is a skilled communicator. He uses language as an instrument to obtain Narcissistic Supply or as a weapon to obliterate his "enemies" and discarded sources with. Cerebral narcissists derive Narcissistic Supply from the consummate use they make of their innate verbosity.
Not so the Asperger's patient. He is equally verbose at times (and taciturn on other occasions) but his topics are few and, thus, tediously repetitive. He is unlikely to obey conversational rules and etiquette (for instance, to let others speak in turn). Nor is the Asperger's patient able to decipher nonverbal cues and gestures or to monitor his own misbehavior on such occasions. Narcissists are similarly inconsiderate - but only towards those who cannot possibly serve as Sources of Narcissistic Supply.
http://samvak.tripod.com/journal72.html
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If anyone tried to argue with my grandfather or even suggest that he wasn't as great as he thought he was he would have severe rage attacks and often become physically violent. THIS, to me, is true pathological narcissism -- anyone who so much as hints that the narcissist's false identity is false becomes a threat. This doesn't sound even remotely like AS.
He sounds so narcissistic that he's bordering on psychopathy!
When you can't relate to others you can only relate to yourself, thus, you get a type of default or unintended egotism/narcissism in AS. It's quite a different thing to be a narcissist though - I've known quite a few, like others here, I've certainly done my time being friends with sociopaths and narcissists.
azalynn
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 6 May 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 69
Location: California, USA
"He sounds so narcissistic that he's bordering on psychopathy!"
Yes, I've heard this...during my childhood he was described as narcissistic and also as "a sociopath" which I believe is the same as "psychopath". However, I don't know if he was ever officially diagnosed. I actually have trouble seeing the difference between a narcissist and a psychopath...the descriptions of both seem very similar.
Yes, "Sociopath" is the Sociologist's term for "Psychopath".
Ooh, hey! We should start a thread on Psychopathy!
Joy of joys! Wonder of wonders! Psychopathy, YAY!! !
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azalynn
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 6 May 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 69
Location: California, USA
I's jes full a surprises
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I definitely think people with AS and NPD have a lot of common traits, but for opposite reasons. We both come to the conclusion that we can't really be respected and accepted for who we are in this society, which leads to a rather negative, condescending view of people in general.
The thing is, us aspies don't outwardly care very much--we just turn inward and focus on our interests. Narcissists think that if they act right, wear the right clothes, listen to the right music, make enough money, drive a flashy car, etc., everything will like them, and things will start going their way. And when it inevitably doesn't, they get depressed and lash out at society. Then they look inward, think they still aren't "cool" enough, so they buy a nicer car, make more money, get a new house, etc. It's a never ending cycle.
I know this from firsthand experience because my best friend is quite narcissistic. We had the following conversation not too long ago...
Me: "If I just knew you based on the front you put up, I'd figure you were completely average and mediocre, aside from being spoiled and having a big ego."
Him: "Yeah I know that, but you aren't like most people. Most people wouldn't accept me for who I am..I want to appeal to them, so then they can get to know the real me."
Me: "Anybody who likes you because you dumb yourself down to their level wouldn't be able to appreciate how you really are, so why bother?"
Him: "At least I try; good luck meeting people by sitting at your computer all the time and never going out."
Me: "Good point."
We do a pretty good job of balancing out each other's mental issues.
Wow. Thanks so much, especially BeeBee and Cindy - you confirmed what I think I now understand about eight years of my life, basically the first half of my adult life on my own.
The narcissist can't have normal friendships; he wants a fan club. And the AS person who doesn't understand AS falls into being that for him since he/she is so desperate to have friends/romance. The narcissist figures out he has the power in the relationship and uses ridicule, threatening to leave, etc. to keep the AS person in line.
Looking back on it now I don't miss it even with the occasional loneliness now.
And this thread has nailed how AS and narcissism are superficially alike.
Re: being alone but not by choice as hurt control/a pain regulator: 'Singing my life with his words/Killing me softly with his song...' You've got it.
OK, here are the big questions for me: Mr Narcissistic Creep* is gone from my life. Has been for years now. Wonderful! I know about AS now. Better still. But I'm still alone and spending most of my time at my computer for the reasons described. (Before computers it was TV, which the creep used to throw in my face.)
So would being diagnosed and getting therapy change that for the better?
Those of you who are dx'd and in therapy: if I may ask, is it working that way for you at all? If so how?
How might I get the same benefits without either a dx or formal therapy? Is that possible?
*As some normal acquaintances sarcastically called him behind his back when he invited himself to a get-together we were having, 'Mr Personality'. Ha ha ha.
I'm an NT that became reacquainted with an old friend after many years. I have had a long-time interest in Psychology and have done quite a bit of study into NPD. I was absolutely convinced that my friend had NPD based upon observations of many facets of his behavior. I even discussed it with a professional who, although unable to obviously confirm my findings, agreed that it appeared that this individual was exhibiting many NPD personality traits. I was quite upset by this as my personal feeling regarding anyone with NPD is "get away as far and as fast as you can and don't look back!! !" I sat with this observation for a while and, because of my past history with the individual, I still felt that something was not quite making sense to me. After a few months of stumbling around in my mind, I hit upon Asperger's and everything began to make sense -all of the interactions, observations by myself and others, and explanations for past behaviour became really clear and I was relieved. This individual has no confirmed diagnosis that I am aware of nor, have we discussed Asperger's.
My point in this post is this: NPD is a horrible perception that people could have of those who have Asperger's. There is nothing that I see that could be of a positive nature that would come out of an interaction with someone who has NPD.
There is little information for the general public to educate them that people who have Asperger's may be mis-labeled or mis-diagnosed with Asperger's. This concerns me on many levels.
Note: I have also observed that a certain amount of narcissism is actually healthy and is found in all people, whether NT or AS
as it has been linked to a develpment of self-esteem. This is my understanding of it and has also been confirmed by a professional that I have great respect for.
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