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Why Do Conservative Men lnsist On Making Themselves Unlovabl

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auntblabby
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04 Apr 2024, 9:59 pm

you might say they've made a deal.



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04 Apr 2024, 10:03 pm

Given how polarized things are, I think it would be really hard to marry a liberal if you are conservative, especially since religion often plays a role.


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05 Apr 2024, 12:01 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
The MAGAs voted Trump in in 2016, at least in part because his opponent was a woman.


Trump and his cult are not Conservative at all. They are right wing radicals which is very different from Conservative.

Conservatism is about respecting and supporting the great institutions of life. Radicals of every ilk, no matter if they are left, right, or something else, want to to tear down those institutions in the crazy belief that they can somehow replace them with what they want. The reality, as ever Conservative knows, is that you can end up with anything, often far worse than what you want.

Trump has never had a Conservative bone in his body. If his cult ever did, they lost it in their mindless worship of the orange cabbage head.


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05 Apr 2024, 4:49 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Seems like this might get locked based on the title.

Still, I do sympathize with anti-feminist conservatives to some extent. If I were as charmless as them, then I too would long for the days when women had lower standards and less self-respect! Women learning that they don't have to be straight and don't have to settle was a horrible development for the anti-feminist men of the world :(


Anti-feminist doesn't mean conservative.

In my experience the Venn Diagram of 'anti-feminists' and 'conservatives' is nearly a perfect circle. Opposition to feminism is inherently conservative or reactionary. I've met many people who would not call themselves big or small C conservatives who oppose feminism. There are anti-feminist centrists, libertarians, nationalists, and members of any other group that accept or endorse conservative viewpoints. I tend to lump those all together as 'conservative' in this context, because, functionally and fundamentally, they are. The centrist only accepts left-of-center positions on a case by case basis; and most feminists are much too radical for the average centrist's liking. Libertarians are adamantly anti-equality; if women do not have the same status as men, it must be because they do not work hard enough in the market--or something; acting like the market isn't meritocratic is an intolerable heresy to the libertarian--and few feminists are detached enough from reality to think the market is a meritocracy. Nationalists oppose feminism because free-thinking, independent women do not make for loyal womb slaves eagerly waiting to pump out babies in the name of glorious homeland.
There's lots of reasons to oppose feminism. None of them are good--and almost all of them are conservative--hence my generalizing.

Certainly somewhere there must be a some number of liberals or progressives or leftists who consider themselves anti-feminist, but they aren't exactly welcome for long in those political circles.


Politics is a spectrum. That's where I'm in agreement with you.

What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.

A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.


How is feminism today practiced in a way that's not good?


He's likely referring to *radical* feminism, and people like Germaine Greer or Andrea Dworkin, the ones who say things like "all sex is rape".


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cyberdad
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05 Apr 2024, 5:03 am

When you have mulah ($$) love follows you...



funeralxempire
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05 Apr 2024, 9:58 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
He's likely referring to *radical* feminism, and people like Germaine Greer or Andrea Dworkin, the ones who say things like "all sex is rape".


Imagine reducing those women's works down to that one line and thinking you've accurately summarized what they've said.


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05 Apr 2024, 10:01 am

SailorsGuy12 wrote:
What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.


I think you're trying to draw false equivalencies between clearly unequal ideologies. One seeks liberation, the other seeks to deny it because they believe women have a naturally ordained role.


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05 Apr 2024, 1:53 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
The MAGAs voted Trump in in 2016, at least in part because his opponent was a woman.

There were a lot of reasons for that, but just because she was a woman is one of the more ludicrous charges, and borders on extremist. Maybe there are a few on the fringes that did for that reason, but that is not the most common one.


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05 Apr 2024, 2:00 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
How is feminism today practiced in a way that's not good?

  • The gender gap in college and university attendance favor women
  • The culture implicates the suggestion that all men are collectively guilty of rape and other kinds of sexual harassment or assault.
  • More homeless are men
  • Name any other challenges that men have because they happen to be men

Somehow, noticing this and putting it out is lumped under the term misogyny or hater.

Even some Democrats and liberals are becoming disillusioned with the growing number of crazies on their side.


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05 Apr 2024, 2:03 pm

SailorsGuy12 wrote:
[*]The culture implicates the suggestion that all men are collectively guilty of rape and other kinds of sexual harassment or assault.

Although we certainly aren’t a homogenous group as some appear to think, most feminists don’t think that. I certainly don’t. There’s no implication involved whatsoever. Pointing out problems with sexism, sexual harassment or abuse doesn’t mean that we think all men behave poorly. Some men are feminists.


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05 Apr 2024, 2:14 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
He's likely referring to *radical* feminism, and people like Germaine Greer or Andrea Dworkin, the ones who say things like "all sex is rape".

Yep. And that idea is being infiltrated today in the subconscious of culture. And my theory is part of it also is in a roundabout way caused by the start of the sexual revolution. Sex and explicit sexual-charged language is very saturated today and it has also revealed a lot of negative consequences.

But the more radical ones remind me of the Christian Right in the 80s saying that D&D should be banned because it is "satanic". Radical leaning feminists are doing the same today, switching D&D with [fill in stereotypically sexy fictional characters] and "satanic" with "harassment" or "objectification".

And there is a subgroup of MRAs or other "manosphere" areas where there is some tension between their causes and traditionally conservative ideas.


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05 Apr 2024, 3:33 pm

SailorsGuy12 wrote:
Politics is a spectrum. That's where I'm in agreement with you.

What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.

A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.

Women have been oppressed and discriminated against for all of human history for being women. Men have never been oppressed or discriminated against for being men. Yes, there are many issues in society that affect both men and women, but that's not what feminism is for, it's to address issues that affect women specifically. It's not possible to create some kind of comparison between feminism, which aims to help and uplift women because of the wrongs they have been subjected to, and "men's rights," which is just a hate group.



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05 Apr 2024, 4:38 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
He's likely referring to *radical* feminism, and people like Germaine Greer or Andrea Dworkin, the ones who say things like "all sex is rape".


Imagine reducing those women's works down to that one line and thinking you've accurately summarized what they've said.


Again, I don't think he has a problem with mainstream feminism.


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05 Apr 2024, 5:36 pm

bee33 wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
Politics is a spectrum. That's where I'm in agreement with you.

What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.

A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.

Women have been oppressed and discriminated against for all of human history for being women. Men have never been oppressed or discriminated against for being men. Yes, there are many issues in society that affect both men and women, but that's not what feminism is for, it's to address issues that affect women specifically. It's not possible to create some kind of comparison between feminism, which aims to help and uplift women because of the wrongs they have been subjected to, and "men's rights," which is just a hate group.

Yup
It is 2024 and some people still need explained to them that feminism is not comparable to men's rights activism. The only way they do so is by fixating on the most out-there parts of feminism so they can paint the whole ideology as unreasonable. It's like acting like the whole civil rights movement was flawed because more than zero people in that movement were members of the Nation of Islam.

Ain't it funny how "Both Sides" is so often applied to today's social and political issues, yet it's rarely applied to those same issues from the past? In 1960 I'm sure you had lots of reasonable moderates saying Both Sides, yet today's moderates always seem to admit that the social conservatives of the past were obviously wrong.
"Yes, OBVIOUSLY the social conservatives of 60 years ago were wrong. And every year before that. And 50 years ago. And 40. And 30. And 20 and 10. OBVIOUSLY, in hindsight, we can say that the world would be objectively worse if those social conservatives had gotten their way. But that doesn't mean that today's social conservatives will also obviously end up being wrong in hindsight! Both Sides!!"


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05 Apr 2024, 5:48 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
He's likely referring to *radical* feminism, and people like Germaine Greer or Andrea Dworkin, the ones who say things like "all sex is rape".


Imagine reducing those women's works down to that one line and thinking you've accurately summarized what they've said.


Again, I don't think he has a problem with mainstream feminism.


How does that address my disagreement with how you summarized Germaine Greer and Andrea Dworkin's output?

Taking a particularly sensational quote without any context and using it to summarize two people's entire written output seems pretty intellectually dishonest. Especially when they've written quite a bit on how social norms can contribute to manufacturing consent and how that entire process invites questioning to what extent people are freely participating in what they agreeing to.


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05 Apr 2024, 5:57 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
[*]The culture implicates the suggestion that all men are collectively guilty of rape and other kinds of sexual harassment or assault.

Although we certainly aren’t a homogenous group as some appear to think, most feminists don’t think that. I certainly don’t. There’s no implication involved whatsoever. Pointing out problems with sexism, sexual harassment or abuse doesn’t mean that we think all men behave poorly. Some men are feminists.


It's easier to dismiss a concern when you misrepresent it. See above. :lol:


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