Why Do Conservative Men lnsist On Making Themselves Unlovabl
Kraichgauer
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auntblabby
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08 Apr 2024, 4:58 pm
bee33 wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
Politics is a spectrum. That's where I'm in agreement with you.
What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.
A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.
What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.
A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.
Women have been oppressed and discriminated against for all of human history for being women. Men have never been oppressed or discriminated against for being men. Yes, there are many issues in society that affect both men and women, but that's not what feminism is for, it's to address issues that affect women specifically. It's not possible to create some kind of comparison between feminism, which aims to help and uplift women because of the wrongs they have been subjected to, and "men's rights," which is just a hate group.
My point was that men also have specific issues that happen to affect men because they are men and that should also be recognized alongside women's issues. If only these men groups and women can meet each other in their middle, but that's probably not going to happen. You labelled "men's rights" as automatically a hate group, this already speaks to me a lot about your mentality about this, unless you show otherwise.
Name some rights or privileges that women don't have today and I can also name some lack of specifically to men/boys or give a chart/pic. As for patriarchal attitudes in the past, yes that was in the past. Since then, the first and second wave feminists pretty much got what they wanted. Now men are being discriminated against today for what their ancestors did in that past. Not all of that was bad, but the current third and fourth wave is just cringe and a regression back to the Dworkinism mentality. Not all men should be excused either, I think unsolicited catcalling is creepy and cringe.
I don't think humankind yet have a completely balanced and healthy view of topics like sexuality, gender relations, or anything, that some of us think we do.
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"Capitalism" or free-market != oppression
08 Apr 2024, 5:07 pm
Patriarchal attitudes are still present. Things are not equal.
Quote:
One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... ic%20place.
Women also are denied full bodily autonomy in places that don’t allow abortion.
There is still a pay gap and the reasons for it are, admittedly, complex and multi-faceted. Different societal expectations rooted in traditional, patriarchal values and gender discrimination appear to play a role.
Interesting information here:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... gap-facts/
Quote:
The gender gap in pay has remained relatively stable in the United States over the past 20 years or so. In 2022, women earned an average of 82% of what men earned, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers. These results are similar to where the pay gap stood in 2002, when women earned 80% as much as men.
There are some notable differences between men and women in views of what’s behind the gender wage gap. Women are much more likely than men (61% vs. 37%) to say a major reason for the gap is that employers treat women differently. And while 45% of women say a major factor is that women make different choices about how to balance work and family, men are slightly less likely to hold that view (40% say this).
About half of employed women (48%) report feeling a great deal of pressure to focus on their responsibilities at home, compared with 35% of employed men. Among working mothers with children younger than 18 in the household, two-thirds (67%) say the same, compared with 45% of working dads.
Parents with children younger than 18 in the household are more likely than those who don’t have young kids at home (48% vs. 40%) to say a major reason for the pay gap is the choices that women make about how to balance family and work. On this question, differences by parental status are evident among both men and women.
Views about reasons for the gender wage gap also differ by party. About two-thirds of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents (68%) say a major factor behind wage differences is that employers treat women differently, but far fewer Republicans and Republican leaners (30%) say the same. Conversely, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say women’s choices about how to balance family and work (50% vs. 36%) and their tendency to work in jobs that pay less (39% vs. 30%) are major reasons why women earn less than men.
Democratic and Republican women are more likely than their male counterparts in the same party to say a major reason for the gender wage gap is that employers treat women differently. About three-quarters of Democratic women (76%) say this, compared with 59% of Democratic men. And while 43% of Republican women say unequal treatment by employers is a major reason for the gender wage gap, just 18% of GOP men share that view.
There are some notable differences between men and women in views of what’s behind the gender wage gap. Women are much more likely than men (61% vs. 37%) to say a major reason for the gap is that employers treat women differently. And while 45% of women say a major factor is that women make different choices about how to balance work and family, men are slightly less likely to hold that view (40% say this).
About half of employed women (48%) report feeling a great deal of pressure to focus on their responsibilities at home, compared with 35% of employed men. Among working mothers with children younger than 18 in the household, two-thirds (67%) say the same, compared with 45% of working dads.
Parents with children younger than 18 in the household are more likely than those who don’t have young kids at home (48% vs. 40%) to say a major reason for the pay gap is the choices that women make about how to balance family and work. On this question, differences by parental status are evident among both men and women.
Views about reasons for the gender wage gap also differ by party. About two-thirds of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents (68%) say a major factor behind wage differences is that employers treat women differently, but far fewer Republicans and Republican leaners (30%) say the same. Conversely, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say women’s choices about how to balance family and work (50% vs. 36%) and their tendency to work in jobs that pay less (39% vs. 30%) are major reasons why women earn less than men.
Democratic and Republican women are more likely than their male counterparts in the same party to say a major reason for the gender wage gap is that employers treat women differently. About three-quarters of Democratic women (76%) say this, compared with 59% of Democratic men. And while 43% of Republican women say unequal treatment by employers is a major reason for the gender wage gap, just 18% of GOP men share that view.
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08 Apr 2024, 5:31 pm
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Patriarchal attitudes are still present. Things are not equal.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... ic%20place.
Women also are denied full bodily autonomy in places that don’t allow abortion.
There is still a pay gap and the reasons for it are complex and multi-faceted. Different societal expectations rooted in traditional, patriarchal values and gender discrimination appear to play a role.
Interesting information here:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... gap-facts/
Quote:
One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... ic%20place.
Women also are denied full bodily autonomy in places that don’t allow abortion.
There is still a pay gap and the reasons for it are complex and multi-faceted. Different societal expectations rooted in traditional, patriarchal values and gender discrimination appear to play a role.
Interesting information here:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... gap-facts/
Quote:
The gender gap in pay has remained relatively stable in the United States over the past 20 years or so. In 2022, women earned an average of 82% of what men earned, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of median hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers. These results are similar to where the pay gap stood in 2002, when women earned 80% as much as men.
There are some notable differences between men and women in views of what’s behind the gender wage gap. Women are much more likely than men (61% vs. 37%) to say a major reason for the gap is that employers treat women differently. And while 45% of women say a major factor is that women make different choices about how to balance work and family, men are slightly less likely to hold that view (40% say this).
About half of employed women (48%) report feeling a great deal of pressure to focus on their responsibilities at home, compared with 35% of employed men. Among working mothers with children younger than 18 in the household, two-thirds (67%) say the same, compared with 45% of working dads.
Parents with children younger than 18 in the household are more likely than those who don’t have young kids at home (48% vs. 40%) to say a major reason for the pay gap is the choices that women make about how to balance family and work. On this question, differences by parental status are evident among both men and women.
Views about reasons for the gender wage gap also differ by party. About two-thirds of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents (68%) say a major factor behind wage differences is that employers treat women differently, but far fewer Republicans and Republican leaners (30%) say the same. Conversely, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say women’s choices about how to balance family and work (50% vs. 36%) and their tendency to work in jobs that pay less (39% vs. 30%) are major reasons why women earn less than men.
Democratic and Republican women are more likely than their male counterparts in the same party to say a major reason for the gender wage gap is that employers treat women differently. About three-quarters of Democratic women (76%) say this, compared with 59% of Democratic men. And while 43% of Republican women say unequal treatment by employers is a major reason for the gender wage gap, just 18% of GOP men share that view.
There are some notable differences between men and women in views of what’s behind the gender wage gap. Women are much more likely than men (61% vs. 37%) to say a major reason for the gap is that employers treat women differently. And while 45% of women say a major factor is that women make different choices about how to balance work and family, men are slightly less likely to hold that view (40% say this).
About half of employed women (48%) report feeling a great deal of pressure to focus on their responsibilities at home, compared with 35% of employed men. Among working mothers with children younger than 18 in the household, two-thirds (67%) say the same, compared with 45% of working dads.
Parents with children younger than 18 in the household are more likely than those who don’t have young kids at home (48% vs. 40%) to say a major reason for the pay gap is the choices that women make about how to balance family and work. On this question, differences by parental status are evident among both men and women.
Views about reasons for the gender wage gap also differ by party. About two-thirds of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents (68%) say a major factor behind wage differences is that employers treat women differently, but far fewer Republicans and Republican leaners (30%) say the same. Conversely, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say women’s choices about how to balance family and work (50% vs. 36%) and their tendency to work in jobs that pay less (39% vs. 30%) are major reasons why women earn less than men.
Democratic and Republican women are more likely than their male counterparts in the same party to say a major reason for the gender wage gap is that employers treat women differently. About three-quarters of Democratic women (76%) say this, compared with 59% of Democratic men. And while 43% of Republican women say unequal treatment by employers is a major reason for the gender wage gap, just 18% of GOP men share that view.
I don't even believe we can artificially make everybody have equal outcomes.
To be fair, men can't have abortions either and family court judges are biased to the mother is custody cases, even though there are probably exceptions.
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Current college student looking for a new job.
"Capitalism" or free-market != oppression
08 Apr 2024, 5:39 pm
That’s not a fair comparison. Men can’t get pregnant unless they are trans. Men have full bodily autonomy. Women do not. Even though I will never get an abortion, the idea that I couldn’t make that choice about my own body in certain locales is disturbing. Some women can’t say “my body my choice.” It’s compounded further when one considers the high rate of sexual assault/harassment. We’re talking about very basic rights here. Yes, sexual assault is illegal, but the fact that it occurs so often demonstrates that there’s a societal problem. Feminists still have things to fight for.
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Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
08 Apr 2024, 5:49 pm
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
bee33 wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
Politics is a spectrum. That's where I'm in agreement with you.
What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.
A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.
What I put in bold above is what I disagree with. I don't consider feminism as is practiced today to be good. I think feminism on the women's side and RedPill/MensRights/MGTOW on the men's side should be both tossed in the bin and start to acknowledge that men's and women's issues are both valid social-political causes.
A lot of the challenges both and in-between have are the same challenges but manifested in a different way for each.
Women have been oppressed and discriminated against for all of human history for being women. Men have never been oppressed or discriminated against for being men. Yes, there are many issues in society that affect both men and women, but that's not what feminism is for, it's to address issues that affect women specifically. It's not possible to create some kind of comparison between feminism, which aims to help and uplift women because of the wrongs they have been subjected to, and "men's rights," which is just a hate group.
My point was that men also have specific issues that happen to affect men because they are men and that should also be recognized alongside women's issues. If only these men groups and women can meet each other in their middle, but that's probably not going to happen. You labelled "men's rights" as automatically a hate group, this already speaks to me a lot about your mentality about this, unless you show otherwise.
Name some rights or privileges that women don't have today and I can also name some lack of specifically to men/boys or give a chart/pic. As for patriarchal attitudes in the past, yes that was in the past. Since then, the first and second wave feminists pretty much got what they wanted. Now men are being discriminated against today for what their ancestors did in that past. Not all of that was bad, but the current third and fourth wave is just cringe and a regression back to the Dworkinism mentality. Not all men should be excused either, I think unsolicited catcalling is creepy and cringe.
I don't think humankind yet have a completely balanced and healthy view of topics like sexuality, gender relations, or anything, that some of us think we do.
There are plenty of things that men, as humans, are being denied, but there is absolutely nothing that they are being denied as men. What you are saying is simply false. It's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference of facts.
auntblabby
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this is disingenuous at best. in tone, it sounds like you're saying something similar to "I don't care if women are blocked from getting legal abortions, my dog can't get one either."
MushroomPrincess
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09 Apr 2024, 3:46 pm
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
To be fair, men can't have abortions either
Some men have uteruses. I'll never take Men's Rights Activists seriously as long as they continue to deny the struggles of transmasc people.
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
and family court judges are biased to the mother is custody cases, even though there are probably exceptions.
And this has been disproven; in almost 100% of custody cases, courts will give custody to whichever parent filed their paperwork. (Take a wild guess which parent that responsibility usually falls on.)
09 Apr 2024, 9:11 pm
Because they think in terms such as black & white, Male & Female and weak and strong and they push that philosophy on everybody that they meet and they want to shove the diverse population of today's world into two stuffy little boxes.
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funeralxempire
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09 Apr 2024, 9:13 pm
^ Agreed with that as a factor. If one views members of their preferred gender as inherently lesser, it seems like that will contribute to repulsing most of those individuals.
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10 Apr 2024, 12:47 am
MushroomPrincess wrote:
SailorsGuy12 wrote:
and family court judges are biased to the mother is custody cases, even though there are probably exceptions.
And this has been disproven; in almost 100% of custody cases, courts will give custody to whichever parent filed their paperwork. (Take a wild guess which parent that responsibility usually falls on.)
Although I don't think this rises to an issue of men's rights, this is not true. I have personal experience with this. When my late ex was divorced, his ex wife was assigned sole custody and he got the standard visitations which was an appalling every other weekend, or seeing his son every 12 days, which is twice a month, and it wasn't even for the whole weekend. There were absolutely no allegations of any wrongdoing or of being unfit. It was just standard.
10 Apr 2024, 12:55 am
I have nearly 25 years experience in family court. I can say that at least where I was living, physical custody is 50-50 so that child support won't be payable and the child won't become a financial pawn. This is arranged by a mediator so that litigation is less necessary. Beyond that, if cooperation isn't possible between the parents for whatever reason, and with all parenting skills being relatively equal, the greater percentage of physical custody is usually awarded to whichever parent has a better income to afford better lawyers, and to provide the child with a better standard of living. That custody is seldom 100%. Legal custody is usually joint regardless of physical, unless a parent is deemed incompetent by court-appointed psychologists.
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10 Apr 2024, 11:54 am
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I have nearly 25 years experience in family court. I can say that at least where I was living, physical custody is 50-50 so that child support won't be payable and the child won't become a financial pawn. This is arranged by a mediator so that litigation is less necessary. Beyond that, if cooperation isn't possible between the parents for whatever reason, and with all parenting skills being relatively equal, the greater percentage of physical custody is usually awarded to whichever parent has a better income to afford better lawyers, and to provide the child with a better standard of living. That custody is seldom 100%. Legal custody is usually joint regardless of physical, unless a parent is deemed incompetent by court-appointed psychologists.
I don't know what happy fantasy world you live in, but New York state is as I described above.
There was absolutely no allegation of my ex being incompetent or any other claim against him. This is standard.
Although he made a lot less than his ex wife, he had to pay child support, and it was taken in advance in a lump sum. He still did all he could to stay in his son's life, though it was extremely difficult. The teacher of his son's theater group, that my boyfriend enrolled him in, said that most dads would have given up when faced with this. Because, again, she knew that this was standard. It was absolutely harrowing.
This was in the early 2000s.
10 Apr 2024, 12:08 pm
^ If someone lives in a different place and has a different experience than you do, does that mean that they live in a “happy fantasy world?” It seems more like they are describing the reality of where they live.
Many parents in the US have joint custody. Most often, parents have to be deemed unsafe or unfit to be denied that although, obviously, individual experience varies. Sometimes parents who are not safe or fit get joint custody. One of the reasons why I never divorced was because my abusive ex used to threaten me with that stuff.
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10 Apr 2024, 12:43 pm
TwilightPrincess wrote:
^ If someone lives in a different place and has a different experience than you do, does that mean that they live in a “happy fantasy world?” It seems more like they are describing the reality of where they live.
I'm referring to the to-me-only-dreamed-of happy world in which all or most parents get joint custody unless there's some terrible problem that prevents it. I'm not implying that Isabella is out of touch with reality. I genuinely believe that that's how it is where she lives (Canada?), but for me that's only a fantasy, since I don't live there.TwilightPrincess wrote:
Many parents in the US have joint custody. Most often, parents have to be deemed unsafe or unfit to be denied that although, obviously, individual experience varies. Sometimes parents who are not safe or fit get joint custody. One of the reasons why I never divorced was because my abusive ex used to threaten me with that stuff.
Yes, many parents have joint custody but that only happens if both parents cooperate with each other. If one parent wants to stick it to the other parent the courts are happy to oblige and it is indeed the norm for them to oblige, at least in New York state. And they generally will side with the mother unless there are some very unusual circumstances. It's just not at all true that one parent has to be deemed unsafe for the mother to get sole custody.
