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How many people are seriously afraid of firearms? Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14, 15  Next  
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Are you afraid of firearms?
I'm afraid of people using them wrongly, but am not afraid of their mere form.
40%
 40%  [ 20 ]
I'm afraid of the mere form of firearms.
10%
 10%  [ 5 ]
I don't have a problem with firearms.
32%
 32%  [ 16 ]
Other stance regarding firearms that you may state below if you care to do so.
14%
 14%  [ 7 ]
I don't have an opinion, I just want an option to click that says nothing.
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 50

pastafarian
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asp-Z wrote:
You can't take a small sample of people then assume that whatever's true for them will be true for an imaginary larger population.

That's why you need stats that use ratios. They will say that "for every 100,000 people, [insert number here] is shot every month" or something. That's a fairly reliable way to work around the population difference.


UN 2002
For every 309million people 9,300 people are shot a year (US)
For every 70million people 14 people are shot a year (UK),

You estimate it for every 100,000 people and see if you are astonished by the scale of the difference.
I don't need to.
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fraac
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

US: 3 per 100,000 per year
UK: 0.02 per 100,000 per year

US has 150 times more killings by firearms. Agreed?
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just making it dead easy, comparing a number close to 10,000 (US), to a number close to 100 (UK).

100 times? 150 times? 50 times? 200 times?

I dont care. The ballpark its astonishing!
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iamnotaparakeet
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraac wrote:
US: 3 per 100,000 per year
UK: 0.02 per 100,000 per year

US has 150 times more killings by firearms. Agreed?


Britain also has 1/5 the population of the States*, so per person that would reduce it to 30 times more killings by firearms per person in the US compared to Britain, which is way more still of course. However, something to consider is that each State in the US makes its own laws regarding firearms, so by going with the country overall you're mixing in both the States which honor the 2nd Amendment and those which don't.

USA population: 313,232,044 (July 2011 est.)
UK population: 62,698,362 (July 2011 est.)

*[313,232,044 / 62,698,362 = 4.99 truncated, meaning the USA has approximately 5 times the population of the UK.]


Last edited by iamnotaparakeet on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fraac
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I give up.
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iamnotaparakeet
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraac wrote:
I give up.


Sorry, I don't mean to frustrate you but really the matter with the laws of the individual states is important because just comparing the overall stats of the nation the higher rates of firearm involved murders of states are averaged. Some states will have more murders than others based on population density even, since with the more supply of people in an area the less they value each other. Some may be due to the lack of fear presented in states where lawful citizens are not permitted to defend themselves and others due to escalation of risk as you were saying. Still though, the usage of numbers for the nation generally is not a proper comparison.
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Blasty
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guns are bitchin'. I have lots (and then some), and always a loaded one in the night stand drawer in case someone wants to pay a surprise visit in the middle of the night. I consider it not only a responsibility to myself, but to my soon-to-be fiance as well. Imagine how it would feel to be powerless while an intruder assaulted someone you love. I question the sanity of anyone who wouldn't want at least a chance to stop the bastard before he could do it. Simply having a gun in hand ends most confrontations; relatively few actually involve shots being fired.

I feel far safer in a society where responsible people are allowed to own guns than I would in a society where nobody can. Shooting as a hobby is also a fun personal challenge and a great way to relieve stress. I would hate to be deprived of this because of other peoples' ill-founded fears.
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamnotaparakeet wrote:


Britain also has 1/5 the population of the States*, so per person that would reduce it to 30 times more killings by firearms per person in the US compared to Britain, which is way more still of course. However, something to consider is that each State in the US makes its own laws regarding firearms, so by going with the country overall you're mixing in both the States which honor the 2nd Amendment and those which don't.

USA population: 313,232,044 (July 2011 est.)
UK population: 62,698,362 (July 2011 est.)

*[313,232,044 / 62,698,362 = 4.99 truncated, meaning the USA has approximately 5 times the population of the UK.]


No this is wrong (sorry if I sound frustrated). Please go back. The population difference has been accounted for - I have repeatedly said this. I said "its roughly 5 times the population" and corrected for this.

[b] I've edited this a few minutes later cos I'm trying to find some real stats and not UN 2002 stats


Last edited by pastafarian on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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Burnbridge
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not astonished because the results don't seem surprising, they seemed obvious in the first place. ;)

If you did a second ratio for non-firearm killing, that would add perspective as well.
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Dillogic
ain't like that no more
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the murder rate between the US and UK (all means)?

I bet they're pretty close.

The object used is really a moot point there.
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Burnbridge
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and the state-by-state laws / population density deflection isn't doing it for me either.

If there was a marked increase in kill ratio due to dense populations getting on each other's nerves, there'd be a way higher kill ratio in the UK. UK is much more densely populated than the US, generally speaking.

I mean, the most dangerous (highest violent crime rate) cities in the US are St Louis, MO and Detroit, MI. Neither of those is a bustling metropolis. In fact, there's mostly just a bunch of rusty abandoned buildings there.
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys you replied to my post, I then edited it a few minutes later cos I am trying to find some UN 2010 stats.

The chart we keep refering to is 2002.
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This appears to be 2002-2004 for the UK data.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

I can find murder rates in UK for 2010 (604), but not firearms figures.

This gives up to date US data and you can access all the data
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

Anyway, I give up too. Its the order of magnitude comparisons I find astonishing whether, its 50 times, 100 times or 150 times.
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Burnbridge
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Total homicide rates, 2010:

South Africa: 34 per 100,000
US: 5 per 100,000
UK: 1.17 per 100,000
Japan: .46 er 100,000

[edit: stats from UNODC, United Nations Office of Drugs n Crime]
[edit: link to UN pdf]


There's a map, too that breaks down US murder by state. England is comparable to the safer US states (Iowa), Scotland is a little more violent, (comp to nebraska, oregon) Actually, New Hampshire, Iowa and Vermont are the least killingest US states. Louisiana the most killer.

p.s. it's stupid hard to get guns in Japan.
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Last edited by Burnbridge on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dillogic
ain't like that no more
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to see if four extra murders per 100,000 people tells much in regards to whether an object is much of a factor.
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