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How many people are seriously afraid of firearms? Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 13, 14, 15  Next  
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Are you afraid of firearms?
I'm afraid of people using them wrongly, but am not afraid of their mere form.
40%
 40%  [ 20 ]
I'm afraid of the mere form of firearms.
10%
 10%  [ 5 ]
I don't have a problem with firearms.
32%
 32%  [ 16 ]
Other stance regarding firearms that you may state below if you care to do so.
14%
 14%  [ 7 ]
I don't have an opinion, I just want an option to click that says nothing.
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 50

pastafarian
Phoenix
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Posts: 549
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burnbridge wrote:
Total homicide rates, 2010:


We were talking about firearms deaths that chart includes all homicide -

2002 data is a long time ago so I shouldnt have used that original chart, but "UK firearms deaths 2010" search gives BBC, Guardian and Independent data that refer to 2008 firearms death stats latest (you'd think a 2010 number of UK firearm deaths would be easy to find).

42 UK firearms deaths in 2008. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
9,528 from firearms deaths US in 2008;

= 45 times in 2008

Asp-Z you get exactly the same if express it as per 100,000, then do the ratio.
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VincentVanJones
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Age: 23
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Guns don't kill people, idiot with guns kill people"

I love guns/weapons of all types (minus bio-weapons, that shit is scary). I am a very nonviolent person. Guess how many times I got in trouble back in HS? Razz
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pastafarian
Phoenix
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Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dillogic wrote:
It's hard to see if four extra murders per 100,000 people tells much in regards to whether an object is much of a factor.


Those figures are total homicide rates, not just firearms. In order to talk about the object, giving firearms rate is an important piece of information. The firearms rate in UK, within that total homicide, is at least magnitude smaller.

Asp-Z regards your comment about being able to do anything you like with stats.

Please digest what Dillogic just said. Do you have any reaction to it, based on understanding of statistics and number literacy?
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pastafarian
Phoenix
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraac wrote:
US: 3 per 100,000 per year
UK: 0.02 per 100,000 per year

US has 150 times more killings by firearms. Agreed?


This goes down with the later stats (I gave you 2002), but the point is the same. The orders of magnitude are astonishing to me.
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Taupey
Aspergian By The Sea
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is like an energizer battery, it keeps going and going... But it's fascinating none-the-less. Okay, back to lurking mode I go.
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Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 35 of 200
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MakaylaTheAspie
Don't double-take
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Location: O'er the land of the so-called free and the home of the self-proclaimed brave. (Oregon)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guns don't randomly walk down streets and kill people, people point them at others to inflict fear.

Am I wrong about that? scratch
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OliveOilMom
Phoenix
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Joined: Nov 12, 2011
Posts: 9620

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MakaylaTheAspie wrote:
Guns don't randomly walk down streets and kill people, people point them at others to inflict fear.

Am I wrong about that? scratch


And sometimes they point them at an animal to inflict dinner. Wink

Frances
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Burnbridge
Phoenix
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Joined: Aug 25, 2011
Age: 39
Posts: 971
Location: Columbus, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pastafarian wrote:
We were talking about firearms deaths that chart includes all homicide -


Well, for a minute, I was wondering what the total homicide rates were, so that we could see whether possession of firearms increased the homicide rate or just the "homicide-by-firearms" rate.

The link up there to the UNDOC pdf with 2010 stats report has a chart that shows % of firearms death. For the US, it's about 60%, for the UK it's about 30%.

So,
total homicide"
US: 5 per 100,000
UK: 1.17 per 100,000

and of that, firearms homicide:
US: 3 per 100,000
UK: .351 per 100,000

-
Another way to say this is "yes, less access to firearms means people will still kill each other, just not with guns."

But So an 8 times increase in firearms homicide only makes a 4.2 times increase in the overall homicide rate ... (does that mean that access to firearms doubles the murder rate?)

This only holds if you ignore other (cultural) variables that might account for the increase. And honestly, the US is pretty low on the list compared to Africa, Central and South Americas, and the former Soviet Bloc. The next question to look at would be whether those regions with the higher kill ratios have any gun restrictions at all (or functional governments), to see if it's a general trend or just a US/UK cultural disparity.
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pastafarian
Phoenix
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Joined: Aug 20, 2011
Posts: 549
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burnbridge wrote:
[Another way to say this is "yes, less access to firearms means people will still kill each other, just not with guns."


But also, who on average is still getting killed? The criminals that kill each others in knife attacks (who will still do so, if they have easier access to guns) or people not involved in crime.

I just find this really hard. I'm totally revolted by guns and by those who celebrate them. I simply cant see how people can love them and jump up and down on forums saying they f*****g love them with glee.

Even if you deeply believe they make your loved ones safer, how can people celebrate them? Does anyone argue for not controlling semi-automatic weapons like those used in Hungerford? (puts hands on ears)
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Icyclan
Sea Gull
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Joined: Jun 20, 2011
Posts: 206

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraac wrote:
Quote:
Here's a scenario: two people hold you up at gunpoint late at night and intend to rob you. Not a far-fetched situation in any of the world's big cities, bar a lucky few


I have never heard of anyone being held up at at gunpoint. Your view is hopelessly US-centric. Maybe it happens in Cape Town or Tblisi or Bogota, I wouldn't know. It's not really a first world problem.


My view is 'US-centric'? I've never even been to the US. Armed robberies happen frequently in major European cities such as Marseille, Amsterdam and Moscow. Look it up. Just because you don't know anyone who was held up at gunpoint doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

In fact, it's happening right in your backyard (link)
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fraac
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Mar 24, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't happen. Knifepoint maybe, not gunpoint. I'm not even reading a Daily Mail article.
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Tequila
Meh
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Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 29138
Location: Lancashire, UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pastafarian wrote:
= 45 times in 2008


Look at the rate of gun crime in Switzerland, a gun country with the fifth highest gun ownership in the world. It's very, very different from the US picture.
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Icyclan
Sea Gull
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Joined: Jun 20, 2011
Posts: 206

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraac wrote:
It doesn't happen. Knifepoint maybe, not gunpoint. I'm not even reading a Daily Mail article.


That's right, if you just stick your head in the sand it doesn't happen and everything's bliss. Keep denying the facts and see the world for what you want it to be instead of for what it really is.
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Tequila
Meh
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Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 29138
Location: Lancashire, UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraac is right - in the UK, in general, murders using guns are relatively rare and only really occur with to gangland and drugs shootings. That said, the rate of firearms murders is much higher in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the UK.
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fraac
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Posts: 1865

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never in my entire life heard of someone being held up at gunpoint in Britain. I've heard of shops being held up and gunpoint but none where anyone got killed because the stakes of the game weren't raised on both sides.
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