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ruveyn
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14 Feb 2012, 2:28 am

peebo wrote:

proudhon explained why owning property is illogical and, as he put it, impossible in "what is property?". i posted a link to it in another thread, you'll find it easily on google.


I wonder if Proudhon ever let anyone else wear his underpants?

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Burzum
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14 Feb 2012, 4:05 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
ha ha lol hah.

No, I am not talking about road maintenance. I am talking about regulating driving and cars. Which last time I checked is not privately lead in the US or... anywhere.

Then your argument is a non-argument. Libertarians are against regulation of free trade, not government services.



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14 Feb 2012, 4:14 am

LKL wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
@LKL

DU or TP? I'm guessing DU.

?


Dox47 is probably trying to pigeonhole you as either affiliated with the ethos of Democratic Underground (DU) or Talking Points Memo (TP). At least, that makes the most sense in this context.


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LKL
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14 Feb 2012, 4:39 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
LKL wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
@LKL

DU or TP? I'm guessing DU.

?


Dox47 is probably trying to pigeonhole you as either affiliated with the ethos of Democratic Underground (DU) or Talking Points Memo (TP). At least, that makes the most sense in this context.

I don't know what either of those are.



Jacoby
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14 Feb 2012, 5:41 am

LKL wrote:
re. the different branches of libertarianism, I'm basing my veiw on the rhetoric of the Paulites, who would (among other things) do away with the Civil Rights Act.


That is nonsense.

as for DU, it is a pretty hilarious site to check out especially when something like the Weiner story or 2010 election wave happens. I don't think anyone here really uses besides maybe Delany, they do not take kindly to criticism of Obama over there. The type of people who still blame Ralph Nader for costing Gore the election.



ruveyn
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14 Feb 2012, 7:51 am

Tequila wrote:
Do you believe that government should tell people what to do or not? Or have you no views one way or the other? What are your views regarding crime, prisons, sin taxes, and so on?


We have laws forbidding murder, theft, rape, fraud and such like harms. Government exists to enforce those laws.

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14 Feb 2012, 8:12 am

johansen wrote:
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As bad as those are, I'd take those unfortunate accidents over the deliberate slaughter of millions. I won't bother posting pictures, you can visit those death camps made by your country and see for yourself.


as would I

5/6ths of the world is alive today thanks to the chemical industry, and it has a surprisingly high safety record. far better than the early death associated with many other basic industries your standard of living depends on.
The fact of the matter is, China, India and the like find the risk (of letting big buisness in, 14 hour days labor, etc, etc) To Be Acceptable.
Americans find the fact that their women hit puberty at age 12 thanks to hormones in the food to be acceptable. its the same thing, just different orders of magnitude.


A bit off topic, but I think it's completely normal that girls hit puberty at age 12. In neolithic times, the average human life expectancy was 20 years (source). During the bronze age it was 26 years, and 30 years in medieval Europe.

My point is, how do you think women could have raised children to an independent age unless they got pregnant at age 11 or 12? People simply ignored this fact in the excessively puritanical Victorian era, when matters of sexuality became a taboo topic and childhood was artificially extended for the first time. That's why we are now under the mistaken impression that children mature unnaturally fast.

I'm also against treating livestock with hormones (and excessive amounts of antibiotics), but I haven't seen any evidence that these hormones cause an earlier onset of puberty. Soy products are a much greater concern. Beef from untreated cows contains 1.7 ng (nanograms) of estrogene per pound, versus 1.9 ng in the beef of hormone-treated cows. Compare that to a pound of soybean oil, which contains 900,000 ng of phyto-estrogens. If you happen to be male and ever want to have children, stay away from soy.



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14 Feb 2012, 8:15 am

On topic: I agree with everything LKL said :)



Dox47
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15 Feb 2012, 7:07 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Dox47 is probably trying to pigeonhole you as either affiliated with the ethos of Democratic Underground (DU) or Talking Points Memo (TP). At least, that makes the most sense in this context.


Close, but I would have said TPM if I meant Talking Points memo; I meant ThinkProgress. Probably should have thrown in that and FDL just to cover my bases.

Have you ever spent any time on DU M_P? Read their TOS sometime for a laugh, it's one of the most illiberal things I've ever read and spells out the site's desire to function as an echo chamber for the Democratic party. Their jury system and the bitching about it is also pretty amusing, if ever you're feeling that the Right has a monopoly on wingnuttery, just spend 10 minutes on DU and shake your head in wonderment.

I asked LKL about other forum affiliations because in this and other threads she seems to have a real hard on for this straw man idea of libertarianism, and the stories and presentation are very similar to the memes seen on those sites. Much like AS, libertarianism is a spectrum with different styles and beliefs among the adherents; so the distortions and broad brushing gets a little old.


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Dox47
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15 Feb 2012, 7:10 am

Jacoby wrote:
as for DU, it is a pretty hilarious site to check out especially when something like the Weiner story or 2010 election wave happens. I don't think anyone here really uses besides maybe Delany, they do not take kindly to criticism of Obama over there. The type of people who still blame Ralph Nader for costing Gore the election.


Yeah, I think criticizing Obama during an election year is actually a ToS violation there; not kidding. They also think calling Republicans "repugnicans" or "rethugnicans" is clever, much like a few users here...


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heavenlyabyss
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15 Feb 2012, 7:46 am

Libertarianism is about freedom for the people who are well off and oppression for the people who are already oppressed. It's about being self-centered. I agree to extent, as long as people admit it. It's when libertarians claim that libertarianism is in the best interest of everyone and everyone should be like them that I get annoyed.



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15 Feb 2012, 7:55 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Libertarianism is about freedom for the people who are well off and oppression for the people who are already oppressed. It's about being self-centered. I agree to extent, as long as people admit it. It's when libertarians claim that libertarianism is in the best interest of everyone and everyone should be like them that I get annoyed.
It's not so much about being self-centered as it is about giving no one the moral authority to determine what someone else does with their own money. Just like how no one has the moral authority to take your freedom of speech on the grounds that your speech doesn't serve any greater good. Basically, libertarianism is about freedom from the interference of moral authoritarianism. Not that every libertarian is extreme when it comes to that, but that's the rationale behind the idea of individual freedom. Yeah I know, everyone's definition of freedom is different but I'd rather distinguish between freedom and security. You have absolute freedom in the wilderness and absolute security in prison.



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15 Feb 2012, 9:49 am

Declension wrote:
I'm going to try to explain to you why I don't like libertarians. This isn't supposed to be an "argument" against libertarianism, it's just why I don't like them.

Imagine that a bunch of people are playing a game of monopoly. After a while, a couple of players have outplayed the others, and have gotten most of the money in the game. Then, the players have to leave and go do something, so they abandon the game with the board still set up.

Now, a new group of people stumbles on the board. One of them, Jeff, sits himself at the place which has the most money. He says, "hey, let's play a nice, fair game of monopoly!" Jeff is a libertarian.

EDIT: Actually, it's even worse than that! You see, in the original game of monopoly, the rules were completely different. In the original game, players frequently just stole money from each other, and killed each other to take their money. But in the new, "fair" game that Jeff is proposing, these things are completely illegal! Otherwise it wouldn't be fair, you see.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k[/youtube]



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15 Feb 2012, 10:41 am

I love when leftards start the classic "bash the libertarians" topic and they discover that the vast majority of people here are libertarians because asperger--->logic---->libertarianism

so the leftard go crazies "Whoooooooooooooo you don't think about the poors" and throws a big tantrum like some 14 years old

If you are more left-wing than a blue dog democrat you are dumb like a rock and if you are anti-capitalist you should seriously consider suicide



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15 Feb 2012, 12:18 pm

^ Acting obnoxious and hurling insults won't help your argument.



Oodain
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15 Feb 2012, 12:52 pm

anyone adherent to any one ideology will in the end always be wrong,

what we need are dynamic solutions, not trite repetition of others opinions.


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