Why Jews are smarter (as a group) than most groups.
17 Oct 2012, 7:40 am
ArrantPariah wrote:
But, wait a tick. What about what the Hebrews did to the Midianites? That wasn't really very nice.
The Judaism that exists today is the result of Rabbinic interpretation and the oral tradition. Judaism has been purge of the nastiness clearly display by the Israelites in biblical times. I would even go as far as to say the Israelites between the exodus from Egypt and the founding of Jerusalem as an Isrealitish city, were as bad ass as the most extreme Jihadi Muslim groups you find today. If they had 747's in those days I am sure a group of Isrealite commandos would have hijacked it and rammed it into the biggest Cana'anite building they could fine.
Judaism has been purged and cleansed. To an extent so has Christianity. Christians have reconciled themselves to the secular order, pretty. However Islam is still unpurged and untamed.
ruvey
17 Oct 2012, 8:13 am
ruveyn wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
But, wait a tick. What about what the Hebrews did to the Midianites? That wasn't really very nice.
The Judaism that exists today is the result of Rabbinic interpretation and the oral tradition. Judaism has been purge of the nastiness clearly display by the Israelites in biblical times. I would even go as far as to say the Israelites between the exodus from Egypt and the founding of Jerusalem as an Isrealitish city, were as bad ass as the most extreme Jihadi Muslim groups you find today. If they had 747's in those days I am sure a group of Isrealite commandos would have hijacked it and rammed it into the biggest Cana'anite building they could fine.
Judaism has been purged and cleansed. To an extent so has Christianity. Christians have reconciled themselves to the secular order, pretty. However Islam is still unpurged and untamed.
ruvey
Are you retracting your prior claim?
ruveyn wrote:
Even so, the ethics embedded in Torah was far superior to any of the surrounding nations and even today they are pretty much the Gold Standard.
17 Oct 2012, 8:48 am
ArrantPariah wrote:
Are you retracting your prior claim?
Not at all. After all the nastiness is purged what you have left is the ethics and they stand up to any ethical system in history. The fundamental ethical principle in Judaism is: Do not do to others what you hate done to you. By the time of R. Hillel this was well establish for the Jews in the Dispersion.
The reason why Judaism was purged and its warrior pride reduced is because Ancient Israel lost several wars and it people were taken captive or exiled to other lands. This is the DIaspora. To prevent extinction of Judaism the Rabbis worked out a way for Jews to live in a strange and still be Jews. This meant that Jews could not push their neighbors around or be a threat to them.
From this we get the current modality of Judaism which is, in general, civil, law abiding and ethical.
To put it bluntly, Jews learned some humility by having the sh*t kicked out of them. This has yet to happen to Islam.
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on 17 Oct 2012, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
17 Oct 2012, 11:46 am
ruveyn wrote:
To put it bluntly, Jews learned some humility by having the sh*t kicked out of the. This has yet to happen to Islam.
ruveyn
ruveyn
Islam actually managed to go in the opposite direction. When Muhammad (if he ever existed) was living in Mecca, he was small town player, so the Quranic verses from this part of his life were somewhat tolerant towards others. But still so intolerant that he got kicked out. Then he moved to Medina and became the boss, at which point he went bat-shit crazy.
17 Oct 2012, 12:52 pm
Part of what makes Judaism truly unique, I think, is the Lamentations and Prophets section, which carry the message "We were really, really naughty, and truly deserved to be slaughtered and enslaved." That, and the attachment to an ancestral homeland.
The Zoroastrians also got their butts kicked, but I don't know if they consider that as a just punishment for having done something naughty, nor if they have any longing to return to Persia.
17 Oct 2012, 1:14 pm
GGPViper wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
So, I think that is a important thing to notice. If you get to claim that having a culture like the Jewish one will improve your chances of winning a Nobel prize, then I get to claim that having a culture with easy access to education and welfare will improve your chances of not being a criminal. It is easy!
But how does this dispute ruveyn's original claim in any way?
It doesn't. I just point out that there is a contradiction between two of the things ruveyn likes to claim. One is that being born in a certain culture alters the probabilities of what you could become and the other is that everybody has free will. Due to the contradiction, at least one of them is probably wrong...
edited, cause I guess the "?" would get misinterpreted.
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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 17 Oct 2012, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
17 Oct 2012, 2:17 pm
Vexcalibur wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
So, I think that is a important thing to notice. If you get to claim that having a culture like the Jewish one will improve your chances of winning a Nobel prize, then I get to claim that having a culture with easy access to education and welfare will improve your chances of not being a criminal. It is easy!
But how does this dispute ruveyn's original claim in any way?
It doesn't? I just point out that there is a contradiction between two of the things ruveyn likes to claim. One is that being born in a certain culture alters the probabilities of what you could become and the other is that everybody has free will. Due to thea contradiction, at least one of them is probably wrong...
Those are not contradictory. You can be born into, let's say a family with a long military tradition, it would increase your chance of ending up in the military, yet it wouldn't mean you didn't have free will if you joined the military.
Kraichgauer
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17 Oct 2012, 4:27 pm
ArrantPariah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I forget, but did they do something like cut off the Midianites' foreskins? (If so, ouch!)
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Numbers 31 wrote:
They attacked Midian, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed all the men, 8 including the five kings of Midian: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba. They also killed Balaam son of Beor.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins. Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured. You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood.”
....
The Lord said to Moses, “You and Eleazar, together with the other leaders of the community, are to count everything that has been captured, including the prisoners and the animals. Divide what was taken into two equal parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the rest of the community. From the part that belongs to the soldiers, withhold as a tax for the Lord one out of every five hundred prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to Eleazar the priest as a special contribution to the Lord. From the part given to the rest of the people, take one out of every fifty prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to the Levites who are in charge of the Lord's Tent.” Moses and Eleazar did what the Lord commanded.
The following is a list of what was captured by the soldiers, in addition to what they kept for themselves: 675,000 sheep and goats, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 virgins. The half share of the soldiers was 337,500 sheep and goats, of which 675 were the tax for the Lord; 36,000 cattle for the soldiers, of which 72 were the tax for the Lord; 30,500 donkeys for the soldiers, of which 61 were the tax for the Lord; and 16,000 virgins for the soldiers, of which 32 were the tax for the Lord. 41 So Moses gave Eleazar the tax as a special contribution to the Lord, as the Lord had commanded.
The share of the community was the same as that for the soldiers: 337,500 sheep and goats, 36,000 cattle, 30,500 donkeys, and 16,000 virgins. From this share Moses took one out of every fifty prisoners and animals, and as the Lord had commanded, gave them to the Levites who were in charge of the Lord's Tent.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins. Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured. You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood.”
....
The Lord said to Moses, “You and Eleazar, together with the other leaders of the community, are to count everything that has been captured, including the prisoners and the animals. Divide what was taken into two equal parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the rest of the community. From the part that belongs to the soldiers, withhold as a tax for the Lord one out of every five hundred prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to Eleazar the priest as a special contribution to the Lord. From the part given to the rest of the people, take one out of every fifty prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to the Levites who are in charge of the Lord's Tent.” Moses and Eleazar did what the Lord commanded.
The following is a list of what was captured by the soldiers, in addition to what they kept for themselves: 675,000 sheep and goats, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 virgins. The half share of the soldiers was 337,500 sheep and goats, of which 675 were the tax for the Lord; 36,000 cattle for the soldiers, of which 72 were the tax for the Lord; 30,500 donkeys for the soldiers, of which 61 were the tax for the Lord; and 16,000 virgins for the soldiers, of which 32 were the tax for the Lord. 41 So Moses gave Eleazar the tax as a special contribution to the Lord, as the Lord had commanded.
The share of the community was the same as that for the soldiers: 337,500 sheep and goats, 36,000 cattle, 30,500 donkeys, and 16,000 virgins. From this share Moses took one out of every fifty prisoners and animals, and as the Lord had commanded, gave them to the Levites who were in charge of the Lord's Tent.
And, what exactly got God the Father in such a tiff? Because, in Numbers 25, some Israelite guys were having orgies with some Midianite girls.
The Israelites even murdered Balaam, son of Beor, who spent Numbers 22-24 sucking up to the Israelites big time.
Okay, no castration, just ethnic cleansing and genocide.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
18 Oct 2012, 10:28 pm
ruveyn wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Well, Saudis and Jews are basically cousins.
That is right. But the Muslims never developed in accidental breeding program that favors intelligence. So we would expect to find a statistically normal ( Gaussian ) distribution of intelligence in the general Muslim population. There is no cultural institution in Muslim societies that would be accidental breeding programs for intelligence.
ruveyn
Well Islam has the Koranic scholars, but I think scholarship took a back seat to war from basically the beginning of Islam.
18 Oct 2012, 10:50 pm
ruveyn wrote:
The fundamental ethical principle in Judaism is: Do not do to others what you hate done to you.
I think this is very interesting, because in my Christian upbringing, I remember being told that this was one of the "revolutionary" ideas proposed by Jesus, and the sort of idea that got him killed by the Jewish establishment. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it's funny to hear that this was already an established idea.
Kraichgauer
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18 Oct 2012, 11:12 pm
Declension wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The fundamental ethical principle in Judaism is: Do not do to others what you hate done to you.
I think this is very interesting, because in my Christian upbringing, I remember being told that this was one of the "revolutionary" ideas proposed by Jesus, and the sort of idea that got him killed by the Jewish establishment. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it's funny to hear that this was already an established idea.
But Christ actually lived that motto,along with loving his enemies, and turning the other cheek. Even Moses and Abraham proved they were incapable of such virtues. I don't know if any of us - Gentile of Jew - could.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
19 Oct 2012, 12:48 am
TM wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
So, I think that is a important thing to notice. If you get to claim that having a culture like the Jewish one will improve your chances of winning a Nobel prize, then I get to claim that having a culture with easy access to education and welfare will improve your chances of not being a criminal. It is easy!
But how does this dispute ruveyn's original claim in any way?
It doesn't? I just point out that there is a contradiction between two of the things ruveyn likes to claim. One is that being born in a certain culture alters the probabilities of what you could become and the other is that everybody has free will. Due to thea contradiction, at least one of them is probably wrong...
Those are not contradictory. You can be born into, let's say a family with a long military tradition, it would increase your chance of ending up in the military, yet it wouldn't mean you didn't have free will if you joined the military.
MarketAndChurch
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19 Oct 2012, 2:53 am
ArrantPariah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I forget, but did they do something like cut off the Midianites' foreskins? (If so, ouch!)
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Numbers 31 wrote:
They attacked Midian, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed all the men, 8 including the five kings of Midian: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba. They also killed Balaam son of Beor.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins.
And, what exactly got God the Father in such a tiff? Because, in Numbers 25, some Israelite guys were having orgies with some Midianite girls.
The Israelites even murdered Balaam, son of Beor, who spent Numbers 22-24 sucking up to the Israelites big time.
Please use http://www.breslov.com/bible/ - It is more closer to the text then what you posted.
Avenge is not used in the torah when it is demanded by God, so this isn't vengeance or animated by vengeance, but making justice. Redress past wrongs or retribution is what God demanded and closer to the text. The Midianites caused a plaque that has killed thousands of jews. You can't wipe out a large enough group of God's vehicle for ethical monotheism, and not expect God to make things right.
Moses' message to prepare for the campaign is that this is a campaign to destroy those who tried take you, God's vehicle for ethical monotheism, away from our ways and to the ways of Polytheism. There are no other specific commands from God then that, so most of what then takes place is entirely Moses.
Did moses act in accordance to God? We can't say either way, but what we do know is that he was hardened from his experience... understandably. Take for example in Deuteronomy when Moses speaks on slavery, and that you are not allowed to kidnapp another human being for slavery, he specifies Israelite, which he shouldn't have just limited it to just Jews, whereas in Exodus, it is stated outright that it is a capital crime no matter who the person is, where they are from or what their ethnicity/nationality does not matter. His specification from NO ONE is allowed to be kidnapped for slavery to just Israelite suggests the difficulty of his experience with principle, and practicality.
Moses SHOULD NOT have ordered the deaths of the Midianite children. If there is one reoccurring message in the text, you are only responsible for your own sins, not the sins of your parents, or the sins of your children.
- God said seek retribution
Moses tells his men to seek retribution (and married to a Midianite women himself, does not participate in the campaign)
The men seek retribution and kill only the males.
They bring back all the female and children, correctly, under the assumption that all is demanded is to seek retribution, so carry out a "normal" military campaign, kill only the men, and bring back the female and children.
Moses is the weak and tragic link in this series of events. Everybody got it right, except for Moses. Perhaps he was trying to also show everyone that despite my marriage to a Midianite women, I will not be swayed by this. Moses is very old, he's very upset. He's facing his mortality. The medianites have killed 40,000 of his people off. The Jews have been animals, he's fought them time and time again to maintain the ethics he's commanded to maintain without much help from the people. And before all of this, Moses observed a prostitute seduce a Jew and have sex with him right in front of Moses, and moses did nothing about it, and may have caused him to see them as the problem... which is why he spares the virgins, because they have not taken part in the prostitution that continually weened Jews away from monotheism to the pagan Gods.
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MarketAndChurch
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19 Oct 2012, 2:58 am
We have no proof that any genocide took place. The torah is very strict in its wording, every word specifically chosen to communicate specific instruction, no where else in history has a book been so carefully constructed.
And the wording is specific.
Moses makes the command.
The torah doesn't state that the men did so... whereas every other instruction given by moses is followed by who/what then carried out that instruction.
Was it done?
We don't know, the implication is NO.
DId the jews enjoy Midinite prostitutes too much? Who knows, but the torah doesn't say that they did that. Was Moses leadership losing sway? Absolutely. The next versus show Elezaer taking leadership, he's losing his temper all the time and Eleazer rises to take lead.
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Kraichgauer
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19 Oct 2012, 4:36 am
Actually, I don't think its all that complicated. Jewish people tend to be in parts of cities and in communities because they look for quality schools, even sending their kids to private schools if necessary. That is, make education a priority. Now my parents were health care professionals (not Jewish) and thought education was important but unfortunately, they moved into a crummy school district and when we would tell them about not learning much they were in denial because "We can't afford to move there". Maybe a Jewish family would move heaven and Earth to move to better schools. They may also do more home studying too instead of watching TV all the time after work, as my parents did.
Some communities are like the one I lived where you don't need math and science if you are going to work in a mill, have a bunch of kids, the wife sells real estate and you have an Amway business and your kid plays Little League. Its kind of hard to stay smart when other people are not.
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