Is the United Kingdom no longer a sovereign state?
leejosepho
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
05 Dec 2009, 9:11 pm
This is from an e-mail I received today, and I wonder whether anyone here might know something about this ...
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Subject: At midnight last night, the United Kingdom ceased to be a sovereign state
Date: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:30 PM
A huge turning point in History was made this week ...
What Germany could not do in two world wars she has now done in stealth. If you do not know the history of the Holy Roman Empire and who was the head of it, Germany, then read this article at http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?pag ... 1194.6.0.0
You can order it for free.
No matter what else happens, December 1, 2009, the Roman Empire came back into being. It will become the Holy Roman Empire when the King of the EU is crowned by the Pope in the coming years ...
------------
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danie ... ign-state/
By Daniel Hannan, Politics
Last updated: December 1st, 2009
We woke up in a different country today. Alright, it doesn't look very different. The trees still seem black against the winter sun; the motorways continue to jam inexplicably; commuters carry on avoiding eye contact. But Britain is no longer a sovereign nation. At midnight last night, we ceased to be an independent state, bound by international treaties to other independent states, and became instead a subordinate unit within a European state.
Yes, a European state. Take a quick dekko at the definition set out in Article One of the1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States: "The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states."
Until yesterday, the EU qualified on grounds (a), (b) and (c). Now it has ticked the final box. Under the Lisbon Treaty, which came into force today, it acquires "legal personality", which gives it the right to sign accords and treat with other states. Nor is this right simply theoretical: the EU now has a foreign minister, a diplomatic corps (the European External Action Service) and 160 overseas embassies.
Until yesterday, the EU could not annex additional policy areas without a new treaty, which needed to be ratified by all its constituent nations. Now, it has the so-called "passerelle" clause, or self-amending mechanism. Parliament, in other words, no longer has the final say on extensions of EU jurisdiction. The EU derives its authority, not from its 27 members, but from its own foundational texts.
Until yesterday, Britain could simply walk out of the EU by abrogating the Treaty of Rome and repealing the 1972 European Communities Act. Henceforth, it will have to go through the secession procedure laid down in Lisbon. In other words - in the minds of Euro-lawyers, at any rate, if not of British constitutionalists - the EU gets to settle the terms on which its members are allowed to leave. Formal sovereignty has been shifted from the national capitals to Brussels.
It is appalling, demeaning, disgraceful that such a thing should have been done without popular consent, and in the absence of the referendum that all three parties had promised. "There's no point in crying over spilt milk," you might say. True. But there is every point in mopping it up.
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05 Dec 2009, 9:55 pm
------------------------
Subject: At midnight last night, the United Kingdom ceased to be a sovereign state
Date: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:30 PM
A huge turning point in History was made this week ...
What Germany could not do in two world wars she has now done in stealth. If you do not know the history of the Holy Roman Empire and who was the head of it, Germany, then read this article at http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?pag ... 1194.6.0.0
You can order it for free.
No matter what else happens, December 1, 2009, the Roman Empire came back into being. It will become the Holy Roman Empire when the King of the EU is crowned by the Pope in the coming years ...
Oh dear, someone has never studied European history.
To the rest of it, I'm not interested in random conspiracy theories.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
leejosepho
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
05 Dec 2009, 10:13 pm
Me neither!
So then, you prefer systematic ones?
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
05 Dec 2009, 10:28 pm
The Holy Roman Empire was never a powerful centralized state, contrary to the claims referenced in the OP. It was far more decentralized than modern Germany, or any functioning modern state for that matter. Its ties to the Roman Empire of old were symbolic at most. And the EU is not a new Roman Empire, or a new HRE. There are people who are in favor of a strong EU and a federal Europe- but this is not some secretive plot, it is an openly held political opinion. Honestly, it's probably in Europe's favor to strengthen the EU. The integration of the European economy has expanded markets to the benefit of most everyone involved, and cooperation on matters like passports makes travel easier for many people. Harmonizing the laws of different European countries also has its obvious benefits.
I suppose what I don't understand is this: what exactly are the objections to the EU?
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
leejosepho
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
05 Dec 2009, 10:49 pm
First, please know I freely admit to having no real expertise here ...
New World Order aka one world government. International Criminal Court. Global pluralism.
It is all about politics and religion under the guise/threat of economics.
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
05 Dec 2009, 11:29 pm
NWO is paranoid conspiracy raving. ICC I am less familiar with. One world government? Maybe at some point in the future, but certainly right now such a thing is completely infeasible. Not sure what the problem is with global pluralism.
What is "it" in this context?
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
leejosepho
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
05 Dec 2009, 11:45 pm
No, it is specific verbiage coming from presidents and other world leaders over the past few decades.
Any individual can now be charged with an international/global crime (such as a free-speech "hate crime" by which any group of people is offended) and picked up and prosecuted outside his or her home country.
The last I heard, breaking the USA's sovereignty is its only remaining major onstacle.
No room allocated for anyone who is not a pluralist.
What is "it" in this context?
The action going on all around all of us today.
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
06 Dec 2009, 5:34 am
I suppose what I don't understand is this: what exactly are the objections to the EU?
But we (the British) were only ever directly consulted about this way back in the 70s when the arrangement was purely about trade. Now we are governed from Europe, and many of us object. Remember that most of us don't feel European anymore than we do American -- there is the Atlantic between us and the US; and the English Channel and North Sea between us and Europe. We feel just as much dissatisfaction at being governed from Brussels as we do when your country sticks its nose in and pushes us about. Smart as you may be, Orwell, your opinion reflects your relatively insular education and upbringing in the US. You are unaware of the mindless bureaucracy with which much of Europe is governed, that is now forced upon us. You are unaware, most likely, of the vast net contribution we make to the EU that comes out of our pockets as taxation. Trade and ease of travel do not mean we have to have one central government. Would you like to be governed from Canada or Mexico?
06 Dec 2009, 9:41 am
No, it is specific verbiage coming from presidents and other world leaders over the past few decades.
The main thing I hear cited is George HW Bush's single reference to a "new world order" in the wake of the fall of the Soviet Union. To any sensible person, it's obvious that he was simply talking about the changes in the dynamic of international relations now that the Eastern Bloc was crumbling.
That seems unlikely.
Really? I'd think it would have difficulty subjugating China and Russia, reconciling India and Pakistan, etc. The world is still quite divided.
A bit ironic, no? But as society progresses, there naturally is less room for outmoded ways of thought. Racists and bigots will continue to be marginalized.
I thought you had voted several times since then? Certainly your representatives have had to agree to any expansion of the EU. To say you're governed from Europe is a bit of an exaggeration- the UK is still a sovereign state with a great deal of autonomy. You haven't even adopted the common European currency.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
leejosepho
Veteran
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
06 Dec 2009, 10:34 am
No, it is specific verbiage coming from presidents and other world leaders over the past few decades.
The main thing I hear cited is George HW Bush's single reference to a "new world order" in the wake of the fall of the Soviet Union. To any sensible person, it's obvious that he was simply talking about the changes in the dynamic of international relations now that the Eastern Bloc was crumbling.
That is what the global elitists want people to believe.
A bit ironic, no? But as society progresses, there naturally is less room for outmoded ways of thought. Racists and bigots will continue to be marginalized.
That arrogance shocks me. I would never have suspected that from you. I am a long way from being either a racist or a bigot.
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
06 Dec 2009, 10:45 am
------------------------
Subject: At midnight last night, the United Kingdom ceased to be a sovereign state
Date: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:30 PM
A huge turning point in History was made this week ...
What Germany could not do in two world wars she has now done in stealth. If you do not know the history of the Holy Roman Empire and who was the head of it, Germany, then read this article at http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?pag ... 1194.6.0.0
You can order it for free.
No matter what else happens, December 1, 2009, the Roman Empire came back into being. It will become the Holy Roman Empire when the King of the EU is crowned by the Pope in the coming years ...
------------
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danie ... ign-state/
By Daniel Hannan, Politics
Last updated: December 1st, 2009
We woke up in a different country today. Alright, it doesn't look very different. The trees still seem black against the winter sun; the motorways continue to jam inexplicably; commuters carry on avoiding eye contact. But Britain is no longer a sovereign nation. At midnight last night, we ceased to be an independent state, bound by international treaties to other independent states, and became instead a subordinate unit within a European state.
Yes, a European state. Take a quick dekko at the definition set out in Article One of the1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States: "The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states."
Until yesterday, the EU qualified on grounds (a), (b) and (c). Now it has ticked the final box. Under the Lisbon Treaty, which came into force today, it acquires "legal personality", which gives it the right to sign accords and treat with other states. Nor is this right simply theoretical: the EU now has a foreign minister, a diplomatic corps (the European External Action Service) and 160 overseas embassies.
Until yesterday, the EU could not annex additional policy areas without a new treaty, which needed to be ratified by all its constituent nations. Now, it has the so-called "passerelle" clause, or self-amending mechanism. Parliament, in other words, no longer has the final say on extensions of EU jurisdiction. The EU derives its authority, not from its 27 members, but from its own foundational texts.
Until yesterday, Britain could simply walk out of the EU by abrogating the Treaty of Rome and repealing the 1972 European Communities Act. Henceforth, it will have to go through the secession procedure laid down in Lisbon. In other words - in the minds of Euro-lawyers, at any rate, if not of British constitutionalists - the EU gets to settle the terms on which its members are allowed to leave. Formal sovereignty has been shifted from the national capitals to Brussels.
It is appalling, demeaning, disgraceful that such a thing should have been done without popular consent, and in the absence of the referendum that all three parties had promised. "There's no point in crying over spilt milk," you might say. True. But there is every point in mopping it up.
------------
------------------------
This is very similar to what the people of the U.S. went through prior to the American Civil War. In fact one of the reasons for the Civil War was that the States considered themselves sovereign. This was particularly true in the South. Robert E. Lee referred to his native State of Virginia as his country. Following the Civil War, Americans accepted more and more that the several States were departments of the United States, a unified nation and that sovereignty was illusory. In the U.S. the several States are simply departments, not too unlike the system in France.
Americans got used to it. It took a hundred years following the Civil War, but it happened. I currently live in the State of New Jersey (prior, I lived in the States of New York, where I was born, Ohio, California and Massachussetts). I considered none of these "my country", rather the political subdivision in which I happened to reside.
Bob Kolker
06 Dec 2009, 11:00 am
Also, what the heck does it have to do with the roman empire or the pope? You do know the EU is quite secular, right?
That sounds like neo-Christian crap. Stand by for quotes from The Book of Revelations. The Whore of Babylon is coming. Can the anti-Christ be far behind?
ruveyn
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