Associative thinking and figurative language

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When Grandin writes about the visual thinking common to many autistics, including herself, she often mentions the associative quality of that thinking. She describes it as being based on strings of images which are somehow related or similar to one another. For example, when she hears „under“ she imagines herself cowering under a table during an air-raid drill at school, then a submarine underwater, then she remembers the song „Yellow sumarine“ and starts playing it over in her mind, then she imagines the hold of a ship she saw somewhere, etc., until her mind wanders off in a completely different direction. In another place she mentions an autistic boy who said things like „I‘m not afraid of planes, that‘s why they fly so high“. Rather than being based on logical sequencing and cause/effect patterns, his thought process was very associative, and he simply associated the fact that he isn‘t afraid of heights with the fact that planes fly high.

This makes total sense (to me at least). But one thing makes me wonder: how does this tie up with the fact that autistics supposedly cannot comprehend metaphor (I know this isn‘t always true, but still, this claim is often made)? It seems improbable that someone with this type of thinking wouldn‘t understand figurative language. It is only one small step from forming associations, especially visual associations, to creating metaphors. Apparently the images involved have to share some similarity; they have to have something in common and need to be compared with one another, otherwise they just won‘t connect.

Grandin herself cannot understand abstract concepts per se, and has to think of distinct visual images that embody them. One example that stuck in my mind for some reason is how she imagines a lightning bolt whenever she utters the words „Thy will“ while saying the Lord‘s Prayer. If that isn‘t a metaphor, then I don‘t know what is. Or a symbol, but here, the line between symbol and metaphor is thin. Apparently, for her to choose the lightning bolt as a symbol for the concept of will, it had to have some qualities that were, in a way, like those of „will“, maybe the shattering force or the majesty. Otherwise it wouldn‘t have reminded her of „will“ and wouldn‘t have made the understanding of that concept any easier.

Later, however, she states she is literal-minded and describes how she took the words from the Bible, „I am the door: he who senters by Me shall be saved“ too directly, as indicating that she should find some real „door“ which would show her the way to Heaven. Now, the way in which she interpreted the words themselves may be literal; but when she proceeded to project her feelings of transition and growth onto the door to the small observing room she called „crows‘ nest“, or onto the glass sliding door in the store, it no longer reads like literal thinking at all. On the contrary, it feels like highly symbolic – if you like, metaphoric – thinking. The same goes for her attaching the round plate with an inscription above the doors of her school on the day when she graduated.

Of course, I could see how someone with this type of visual associative thinking could miss out on some conventional figurative language, say, in potery, while creating those vivid symbols for every concept in their mind. But I could also see many ways in which they could understand figurative language perfectly, maybe with a depth that a verbal logical thinker would find difficult to attain.

Any thoughts?

I don't think in pictures myself, as I consider myself a word person, but I think the concept is fascinating.

The Bible was one of the first books I studied.The whole thing is a puzzle book of metaphors.I cant remember if someone had to explain the first few metaphors(like Jesus being a sheperd)but after a few of them,I think it becomes an intellectual game of trying to figure out what the picture represents/symbolizes.If you know that sheperds protect their sheep and Jesus is supposed to love everyone like a father and that people are not sheep that need to be herded but that they often need protection and guidance to stay out of trouble....then figuring it out isnt any thing more then a form of algebra.Many aspies are good a maths and logic,therfore,many would be good at metaphors.I think this concept that aspies dont "get" metaphors is based on very young children.

It isnt that much different then learning that the picture of a "shape" ie, a letter
stands for a sound or the shape of a lot of letters(a word) stands in for a picture,movement,feeling,etc.I am very literal and nieve about somethings(like people)but words are not that different then math...there are rules and once you learn them you can figure out the intended meaning.I think being visual enhances that process.

i hate metaphors and literature and all that crap.
i remember doing some gay shakespear play in class, and the teacher said like "He used the word 'the' here, and in act w/e scene w/e. That is a parallel." and i said "Eh?"
Oh also in shakespear plays, he often uses the wrong word for something that had no meaning close to what they say it means. it just starts the same, is the same length, and looks sorta of like the word. i do this when i chat, say the wrong word for something when the word spells similar. is this artistic witting?
also i remember a line in shakespear where he says something in the negative, and they said it means in the positive. like "I will not do it" = "I will do it". wtf kind of crap is that
"wherefore art though romeo" = "why is ur name romeo, and have a different last name then me, that so happens to be the enemy of people with my last name" + more crap; not "where are you romeo" ?
"to be, or not to be" = pages and pages of notes. why not "to exists, or not to exists" simplifying to "to exist or not"?
i never read the bible but im sure its just as bad.

I don't get metaphors if I can't see the gears, but metaphor is often the only way I can cobble together communication, which, honestly, is terribly frustrating

[quote="matt271"]i hate metaphors and literature and all that crap.
i remember doing some gay shakespear play in class, and the teacher said like "He used the word 'the' here, and in act w/e scene w/e. That is a parallel." and i said "Eh?"
Oh also in shakespear plays, he often uses the wrong word for something that had no meaning close to what they say it means. it just starts the same, is the same length, and looks sorta of like the word. i do this when i chat, say the wrong word for something when the word spells similar. is this artistic witting?
also i remember a line in shakespear where he says something in the negative, and they said it means in the positive. like "I will not do it" = "I will do it". wtf kind of crap is that
"wherefore art though romeo" = "why is ur name romeo, and have a different last name then me, that so happens to be the enemy of people with my last name" + more crap; not "where are you romeo" ?
"to be, or not to be" = pages and pages of notes. why not "to exists, or not to exists" simplifying to "to exist or not"?
quote]

I am the same way; I'm taking an English class right now that required a lot of analyzation of poems and plays and such and I'm totally drowning in it all becaus I take everything so literally...

Not to mention, I think in pictures, but when E. Cummings is saying "The goat-footed balloon man who whistles far and wee" all I can get is the picture of a satyr with balloons...which I'm sure doesn't help the poem at all...

Anyone here mix up words that sound similar? I said "Poetic Justice" last night when I meant "Poetic License" and then justified it with the fact that I suck at poems in general when I really wanted to give a whole spiel about how the two sayings made a lot of sense in the way I had used them but only ended up making myself look like an idiot because I really had no idea what I was trying to say to fix the situation.

I'm a visual thinker, but metaphors really aren't that difficult for me to grasp. In conversation, when I'm not really expecting a metaphor, they can elude me. If I know I should be expecting a metaphor, I can find many, many, many different meanings, and I can select the one that best fits the situation. But when I'm talking to people, I'm not really looking for metaphors unless they give me some literal cue to expect one.

Metaphor is probably my most effective tool for communication. I find it much easier to draw parallels between two situations, feelings, etc., than to describe my thoughts literally. In fact, I don't think I'd have any problems communicating if it were possible to speak only through comparison and be understood.

My best guess is that I think almost exclusively through comparison. Because literal description is so foreign to me, I have to "translate" my thoughts, and what I hear, to and from a logical, structured language. Because I'm following all the rules, what I have to say can make me sound like a pseudo-professor; however, when others speak to me, I need a literal cue to push me back into relational thinking. I need to use one mode or the other, but as I've aged, I've learned to recognize more and more subtle clues that there's a metaphor in the mix.

If this is true for other aspies, like Grandin, it would explain why she took the text so literally at first, and then, once she realized it was a metaphor, was able to transform it into something deep and highly comparitive.

Just a thought.

`dp

[quote="GhostOfTheChameleon"]


Metaphor is probably my most effective tool for communication. I find it much easier to draw parallels between two situations, feelings, etc., than to describe my thoughts literally. In fact, I don't think I'd have any problems communicating if it were possible to speak only through comparison and be understood.

`dp[/quot


I never even realized this until you said it but this is exactly what I do.It sometimes takes me several tries until the person "gets" what I am saying but it seems easier to be understood when I relate what I am talking about to something
concrete....like explaining human behavior by comparing it to some thing similar in nature...or using math or logic to try and explain "process" of abstract concepts in psychology,sociolgy,politics.

If you think Shakespeare is bad, try Chaucer (who by the way is my favorite).


Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
han Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth


That is the beginning of the Cantebury Tales. Old English is harder still. Old English is the reason I can read German, but I can't speak it. Old English comes from German. Middle English, like that above is German mixed with French and Latin (blame all the invasions). That's why English as a language is so messed up. Most languages have stayed pure for the most part. English is considered a mongrel language.



As to associative thinking, I do that all the time. That's how I think. But the truth is that all brains are pattern seeking and search for the association. It's usually a subconcious process. In our case, we are aware of it. That's the real difference. We can also sometimes control it. We can turn it on or off. We can also take it as far as we want to go. The majority of NTs cannot do this.

she also acknowledges the fact that by writing... even visual thinkers have to incorporate some level of "Word" thinking...

think i t just varies in degree...

i think a lot in pictures but also use words... i have been reading since i was very young. and i've always had an affinity to similes and metaphors BECAUSE they conjure such awesome visuals... i'm sometimes a little slow to get jokes and such in conversation... but i seem to get them when i read easily (as far as i know, lol)

think she kinda clung to verbs... cause they're so easy to picture... but i still remember gleefully coming up with ways to grasp (some) specific metaphors i learned early on... like it was an accomplishment ><

if I wanted to think 100% without words I could it would just become impossible for me to communicate verbally, I have shapes <which is about as inadequate a word as I can imagine, but it's the best I can get> that could be compared to .exe's or some other mass block fof data, on it's own it is something, but it is a whole lot of other somethings put together when you start taking it apart

For me, it varies depending on how awake I am. It's almost as if my brain boots its sectors in the order they were evolutionarily developed.

When I first awaken, I find myself on the most primitive end of the scale. My brain relies on a combination of images and emotional surges. Communcation in this state is done though a combination of scowling, smiling, animalistic whines, pointing, growls, etc. Any mockery while in this state is greeted by an annoyed frown and a growl.

Shortly thereafter, I develop the capacity to use single words and very brief phrases, although the word choice is odd. The scowling, smiling, pointing, etc. persists. If the cat is nibbling my toes and irritating me while I am in this state, you'll hear animalistic growling and whining. If you ask me what's wrong, I will frown, point at the cat, and say, "Mew." (The cat is apparently "Mew." when I'm in this state, hehe.) If I am headed to the bathroom and you are in my way, I'll growl, whine, make shooing motions, and say, "Toilet door!" Although I've smoked for 17 years and am quite desirous of one in the morning, I can't seem to say "cigarette" when I'm in this state. Instead, I will look around where I normally leave them, and if they are not there I am not happy. *growl* "Goddamn!" *whine* is pretty much shorthand at this stage for "I can't find my cigarettes, have you seen them?" Mockery while in this state is greeted by a frown and an upraised middle finger, or if I have gas that morning, a frown, a fart, and a smug look.

Once I've been to the bathroom and have started loading caffeine and nicotine into the system, things get a bit better. Symbolic thought appears in the brain. Animalistic noises drop off sharply, while word usage increases vastly... although the grammar and word usage is still very odd. ("I's the sleepy beins." instead of "I'm tired." "Good lil mew, mew lils!" while petting the cat.)

Once I've gotten a reasonable amount of caffeine and nicotine into the system, symbolic thought grows to predominate... words become foreground while the images they represent shift more into the background. I become capable of sarcasm, and grammar significantly improves. Eventually, this stage culminates in the full waking state... the one I'm writing this post with.

When I get very tired, things start to run retrograde... grammar begins to decay, word usage becomes strange, mental pictures start predominating over human linguistics, etc. (This is frustrating... it leaves me groping for words and feeling like an idiot.) Massive doses of caffeine and nicotine can halt this functional degradation temporarily, but otherwise I quickly wind down and eventually fall into the well of sleep yet again.

Some hours later I awaken, and the cycle begins anew.

Krex, GhostOfTheChameleon -

Much the same with me, too. I also find myself making comparisons and connections between things all the time, - usually between very concrete objects and something more abstract like concepts or my inner states, - and I seem to communicate my emotions most effectively through metaphor of one sort or another. Otherwise, when I try to describe what I feel directly, I have difficulty finding the right words, and probably come across as that stereotypical person with autistic tendencies who is either not aware enough of her own feelings or can't speak about them, or both. It's tiring too, experiencing something so clearly but not managing to convey it in an intelligible manner when I try.

Words like "happy" or "sad" or "isolated" are flat when they stand alone. They appear to be void of any particular feeling. It's as if they were so obscure one could fit many different shades into them, while in themselves, they mean nothing. There are many different types of "sad", for instance - the "iced over" sad, the "turned into stone" sad, the "walking through water" sad and so on (this is simplification but I hope you get the idea), and it is only these images that have real meaning to me. But "sad" in itself is little more than a string of sounds.

When reading, I also pick up feelings best of all when they're expressed through visual metaphor. Because of this, I really dislike the kind of writing where there are many words that mean feelings, but none of the more elaborate comparisons, especially the way it's done in many Romantic novels or horror stories (with "horrified" and "terror" and "overjoyed" and the like being all over the place). It reads like an empty combinations of words and gets really boring after a while.

So THIS is why autistics SUPPOSEDLY can't handle abstract ideas? I think by almost a feel type. It borders on visual and audio. I can handle abstract ideas fine, and I think most HFA or AS people can. I do ok with metaphors also.

And, with me, association with known things is the best way to remember. Visual imagery is the next best.

Steve

"String of unconventionally related concepts" is a good way to describe my thought processes when I let them run amok, pretty much exactly how you've described Temple Grandin describing her thought processes. So this is why I have trouble as a student, especially because my thoughts tend to "jump" from one end of a concept to the other while taking the middle for granted. I don't like to hear people hammer in details about concepts that only take a sentence for me to understand; to me taking a simple concept and examining it under a microscope is confusing and I lose my sense of context. By the same token, I get lost trying to extrapolate my way through mathematics. I can't do algebra. Is algebra considered an abstract concept? My problem is I try to visualize it, I guess, or I have trouble just imagining arbitrary numbers floating around. I probably would have done fine in algebra if I had been taught in a way that was complimentary to my thought processes; it's not that I don't "get" algebra, it's just I confuse the various steps (I slept through my HS algebra) and at the point I'm at it's not worth going back and learning them in order.

When I've spent a while isolating myself, or when I'm under the influence of something, I tend to drop "filler" or linking words, and shoot out rapid fire ideas. I've never met a person that's been able to keep up with me when I do this.