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DentArthurDent
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:24 am    Post subject: Aspergers and above average IQ Reply with quote

I often read on this forum about how those with Aspergers Syndrome have above average to high IQ's. This argument is often used by 'aspie elitists' to defend their position. someone in PPR has just asked the question wheres the proof. So I had a quick search around and came up empty. As General seems to be a bastion for this belief I was wondering if any of you can provide evidence for this belief? Until this morning I also accepted this as true.
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Danielismyname
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People with AS fall within the normal continuum of intellectual functioning, albeit with strengths and weaknesses in subscoring to a higher degree than the average population.

That's 75 to whatever (albeit, 50 to 60 is possible under the DSM-IV-TR if there's no delay in the acquisition of speech and other areas in infancy).
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poopylungstuffing
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am no longer sure what my iq would be considered....I am not a genius....my strengths and weaknesses are at an imbalance.
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FireBird
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly I have a negative IQ. I actually have no brain aka "Anencephaly" but I have a less severe version of it, normally when you have this your skull doesn't develop normally. Its a common "human" condition, affecting nearly everyone. Their driving skills proves this. I tried looking for intelligent life on this planet, but couldn't find any. My skull is empty! I've had countless MRI's to prove this. I wish so much that I have a brain, but have no proof. And all my IQ tests were horrible!! 99% of them scored in the Borderline Intellectual Functioning range, otherwise known as BIF. I do nothing that proves I have a higher IQ than that. I can barely do simple math, know little about science, history, or any other subject that requires a brain. Yes, I could read around 3 years of age, but that was due to Hyperlexia. Reading words blindly has nothing to do with intelligence. I mean I didn't understand what I read until a few years ago, and only medical and current events type stuff. Very limited. I can't even read a preschool level book because it is fiction. I was never able to read novels and understand them, but yet I can read medical stuff (mainly psychology) with ease. In fact, to prove that I have the worlds best psychology knowledge (no, not a grandiose delusion!!!) many previous therapists/ psychologists I have been to said my medical knowledge surpasses theirs!! And I never took a single class on it, all self taught! Psychology is the easiest medical field there is, and since I experienced nearly everything in the DSM IV, including the Evil Scary Schizophrenia ({well actually schizoaffective disorder}don't agree with this diagnosis though because I am not psychotic! Just plain neurosis at work!) and the so called "rare" DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder aka Multiple personality disorder) but that actually happens in 1 in 100 cases, unlike what other people might say (they say its much rarer than schizophrenia but it actually happens both in 1 in 100 cases, believe it or not!) of course I have Autism as well, but not Asperger's. That is because I had the speech delay, which would eliminate the diagnosis of Asperger's. I didn't start truly speaking until I was 7. I don't have schizoaffective disorder because first of all, I hardly ever hear voices or other auditory hallucinations, no delusions (even though from the outside it looks as if I have at LEAST 6 different types, what they don't get is its all real!) don't have disorganized speech anymore (it used to be a problem), no disorganized or catatonic behavior, and the only "negative" symptom I experience is similar to depression. Oh where was I going with this?? What does this have to do with an.. IQ??? As one of my favorite shirts says, "I took an IQ test and the results were negative." If only I had a brain. I know all about ONE subject, but nothing about anything else. I am an idiot savant. Oh yeah, I can draw. 10 % of autistics have a savant like talent, compared to less than 1% of the general population. There is no population where I live, far away from "human" population in the year 1809, 200 years behind the cities. Cow population 200 MILLION, "human" population...you. I mean to prove this isn't a delusion of the bizarre type, when I first mooooved here in 1800 (2000 in cities or technologically advanced areas) cable TV hasn't been invented yet, and it took ages for high speed Internet to reach my house! And in some areas, electricity hasn't been invented yet! Cars are known as "Time machines" to tansport me and my family (or other "people") to the "future." When I reach a city, I say, "oh, that's what 2009 is supposed to look like!" Seriously, the newspaper out here mainly covers cows getting loose. Yes, they are going to infect everyone out here with Mad Cow Disease! I'm soooo old! I mean chronologically 26, but feel like 500 million. I remember the dinosaurs! OK, now I'm officially confused. Gotta go to sleep now, its past midnight.
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Fo-Rum
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's actually kind of irrelevant. Even if people with AS tend to have a higher IQ than normal, you still fall into a minority group, meaning there aren't a lot. How does that make you any more special than an NT that has a higher IQ than the average person? The chances for an above average IQ and being NT are probably higher than having AS (if somebody could pull numbers for that, that would be cool).

I know somebody who has a high IQ (genius level) and shes a complete ditz. IQ does count for something, but sometimes personality and tendencies can make it useless.
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scorpileo
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fo-Rum wrote:
Well, it's actually kind of irrelevant. Even if people with AS tend to have a higher IQ than normal, you still fall into a minority group, meaning there aren't a lot. How does that make you any more special than an NT that has a higher IQ than the average person? The chances for an above average IQ and being NT are probably higher than having AS (if somebody could pull numbers for that, that would be cool).

I know somebody who has a high IQ (genius level) and shes a complete ditz. IQ does count for something, but sometimes personality and tendencies can make it useless.


yeah I would agree with you personality and tendencies can render high IQ useless.
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DentArthurDent
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool So far intelligent responses. I agree, even if I had the highest intellect it would not make up for the troubles that ASD causes
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Emor
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally the people with Aspergers I talk to do come across as a lot more intelligent than the NTs I talk to. I've only met one person with an ASD that seemed to be less intelligent than the average NT(no, she's not LFA).
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Abstract_Logic
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Individuals who are labeled with Asperger's Syndrome must, by definition, have an average to above-average intelligence level.

Now, the question seems to be: Are so-called NTs with genius-level IQs aptly labeled NTs?

My answer to that question is in the negative, and I will explain the reasons why.

Highly gifted individuals typically have what are called 'over-excitabilities'. Over-excitabilities are specific, inborn intensities that cause the individual to have a heightened response to certain stimuli (i.e. intellectual, emotional, imaginational, psychomotor). For more information on OEs you may click on the following link: Overexcitabilities

As you can see, OEs may lead to a misdiagnosis of Asperger's syndrome, ADHD, OCD, etc.. So there is an obvious link between Asperger's syndrome and OEs, which characterize highly gifted individuals. According to Dabrowski, who formulated the Theory of Positive Disintegration, "OE is a heightened physiological experience
of sensory stimuli resulting from increased sensitivity of the neurons" (Dabrowski 1972). OEs thus take place at the neuro-cognitive level. So, being a highly gifted individual, you will, by definition, have a more advanced and complex neurology than average.

Things to consider:

- Analysis of Einstein's brain has shown that it contained more glial (support) cells than usual. It has also shown a peculiar pattern of grooves in the parietal lobes, which are thought to play key roles in the development of mathematical and spatial abilities. Einstein's Brain

- The fact that many of the great individuals in history are believed to have had Asperger's syndrome definitely exemplifies the relatedness of Asperger's syndrome with high intelligence.

- Temple Grandin herself stated that "without Autism, there would be no scientists." What her intended message was is that, without Autism, there wouldn't be individuals who have the propensity to become obsessed with nature and life, and therefore, we wouldn't be nearly as advanced of a society as we are today. Scientists' propensity to become obsessed with nature and life is an example of overexcitabilities, which are found in highly gifted individuals with vastly different neurological wirings.
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DentArthurDent
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abstract_Logic wrote:
Individuals who are labeled with Asperger's Syndrome must, by definition, have an average to above-average intelligence level.


This is exactly what I am talking about; where is the proof for this claim! I know for a fact that this is fallacious. My ex partner works with aspergers kids, who by the way all have IQ's below 70
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Danielismyname
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually, below-average to above-average (inside the normal continuum), rather than above or higher.

However, cases of mild MR can exist (outside the normal continuum), as per this DSM-IV-TR entry:
Quote:
In contrast to Autistic Disorder, Mental Retardation is not usually observed in Asperger's Disorder, although occasional cases in which Mild Mental Retardation is present have been noted (e.g., when the Mental Retardation becomes apparent only in the school years, with no apparent cognitive or language delay in the first years of life).
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Hala
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DentArthurDent wrote:
Abstract_Logic wrote:
Individuals who are labeled with Asperger's Syndrome must, by definition, have an average to above-average intelligence level.


This is exactly what I am talking about; where is the proof for this claim! I know for a fact that this is fallacious. My ex partner works with aspergers kids, who by the way all have IQ's below 70


It's not a claim, it's part of the diagnostic criteria. To be diagnosed with Asperger's you have to have an average or above average IQ otherwise you will be diagnosed with a different Autistic Spectrum Disorder. If those children have IQs below 70 then it seems they have been misdiagnosed and are probably Autistic instead.

On average, Aspies do have a higher IQ than the general population. This is because any people with IQs below 70 (I think that's considered 'average') are not usually diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Therefore, of course, the average IQ for Aspies will be higher than the general population, because the general population contains people with IQs below 70, which obviously lowers the average.
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Abstract_Logic
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DentArthurDent wrote:
Abstract_Logic wrote:
Individuals who are labeled with Asperger's Syndrome must, by definition, have an average to above-average intelligence level.


This is exactly what I am talking about; where is the proof for this claim! I know for a fact that this is fallacious. My ex partner works with aspergers kids, who by the way all have IQ's below 70


That wasn't a claim. It's a fact. Where is the proof of your claim that your ex partner works with asperger's kids who all have IQs below 70? How can you state something while being fully convinced of its certainty without providing viable evidence? How are we supposed to know you're telling the truth?

To be both diagnosed with Asperger's and to have an IQ of 70 is a contradiction. If they have IQs below 70, they are certainly not Asperger kids. Like Hala said, they are probably diagnosed with some other autistic condition. Asperger's syndrome is a form of high-functioning autism. If you have a below average intelligence, you are certainly not high-functioning autistic. Having an IQ in the normal or above normal range is a requisite of being diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. An IQ is an important factor in making the diagnosis. If it wasn't an important factor, then the label of Asperger's syndrome wouldn't even exist.
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Danielismyname
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abstract_Logic and Hala,

See my post.

To reiterate fact, an IQ of 75 or higher is the most common, which starts at below-average and works its way up to above-average. This is the normal continuum of intellectual functioning, and most with AS fall here (from below-average to above-average. MR isn't a part of the normal continuum).

My post contains a direct quote from the as current DSM-IV-TR that explicitly states an IQ of 50 to 60 is possible in rare cases in Asperger's Disorder.
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. Since the idea of Aspie elitists has been raised I will go on record by saying my IQ is 20. That is my official 1Q score. 20. It can get know hire. I never saw it get know hire than that. Honest. Know wonder I can't find a job!

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on Sat May 23, 2009 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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