Born-again christian with doubts

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Actually, in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was pretty scared of what he knew was coming. In fact, he prayed so hard that he was supposed to have sweated blood when he prayed to "take this cup from me." Sounds pretty human to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Yeah, I looked up started reading it and then decided it was in my own best interest to stop.

I'm not so interested in defending atheism as to do damage to myself by reading such hateful drivel. I prefer to be ignorant.

Admittedly, stuff like that makes me wonder if the entire Bible is actually inspired.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

It sounds like you had a good upbringing, then.

The "Hell" you were taught about is a Pagan concept, and it's not found anywhere in the Bible. The Hell referred to in Mark refers to "worms that never die," in one wording or another, depending on your version. That's all they mean: worms. They aren't trying to use some code-word for "soul," but they're talking about something that eats your body. They mean that you're dead forever.

Satan is a servant of God who challenges and tests the moral righteousness of individuals. You will find that in Job. This old concept that he's a "rebellious angel" or some other nonsense is rubbish and horse feathers. If you ignore all of the Pagan nonsense out there, Satan is just someone sent by God to point out if you are being an arrogant ninny.

The New Testament is pretty clear on "eternal life." Only the followers of Jesus are resurrected, and that is the end of it. That is final. That is self-evident if you read the Bible, without trying to superimpose onto it a lot of Pagan nonsense.

Everything that you have been taught is Pagan. Christianity has never been the dominant religion in the West. It never will be. The old faith, Paganism, lives on, just under different pretenses. You are a Pagan, and you were raised on Pagan values. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it ain't Christianity if you consider Christianity to have anything to do with Christ from the Bible.

Now, read your Bible, and read it with a sense of scholarship this time. Don't miss a single page, and please, for the sake of my sanity, don't try to superimpose your Pagan beliefs on scripture that is translated into reasonably plain English. If you can make it through our secondary education system, you can read the Bible. It's the same method of scholarship our country has lovingly tried to instill in you since you were in Kindergarten.

Why? Why does it take an atheist to realize what is plainly obvious?

What are you on about?

The Bible is a collection of books that contradict each other on a lot of the doctrines. You can't reasonably argue that the Bible never states that hell is eternal when you have the Book of Revelation stating exactly what you're arguing against.

I always thought it was peculiar Jesus would even pray. Who exactly was he praying to?? He is god, after all (Right?), did he really find it necessary to pray to commune with himself or something? This sounds remarkably schizo. Someone enlighten me?

Pagan? Who said anything about paganism? Pagans are polytheistic and the Christians did usurp many Pagan traditions to better incorporate them into the Christian collective.

Hell's eternal. You are not, so who might it be for then?...

Mmmm. Maybe it's for...

While he was human, he was subject to the will of God the Father, by whom he had been sent. That's to who and why he was praying.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Fine, be bloody-minded. I imagine the only text out of the Bible you've read is the bloody Book of Revelation, which most intelligent people, who believe in most of the Bible, regard as apocryphal nonsense at best, useless drivel more than likely. It appeals to you because it reads like pulp fantasy and doesn't require any discipline to read or understand. It provides you with romantic action scenes and colorful monstrosities.

Are you aware of how much time and effort it requires to get through the Book of Numbers and have the slightest idea of what they were talking about or to get a glimmering of why the book was written? You probably don't. It was written for very good reasons, and it was considered an essential part of Jewish law for good reasons.

Oh, but don't listen to me. I'm just the local atheist. What the hell do I know? All I do is sit around reading books all day.

And, for that matter, the very concept of eschatology is borne of Mazda worship. Although worshipers of Ahura Mazda were often on good terms with the people of Israel, their gods were not even distant cousins. Everything you think you know about Hell comes from an old Persian religion, and it's one that still happens to exist. We call it "Zoroastrianism."

It is likely that the popularity of the Book of Revelation with Christians has something to do with the fact that Manichaeanism, which contains several elements of Zoroastrianism, was one of the chief rivals of Christianity at one time. The Manichaean religion, which contains more outright nonsense than Christians could think of inventing, could very well have become the dominant religion in Europe, and I gasp to think what those nutjobs would have done if they had assumed power.

Hell, if you took the Christians out of our history, I can assure you that there was a whole host of far worse fanatics and holy rollers out there, just salivating to have risen in their place. Let's just be thankful that the early church fathers at least tried to create an atmosphere of nurturing and learning, such as Saint Augustine for example.

For that matter, if you really have an interest in Christianity, you ought to read the many writings by individuals such as St. Augustine. There are centuries of ideas and rhetoric over the very subjects that you are presently wrought over, and I can assure you that you wouldn't be bored within your lifetime if you were to take a scholarly approach to learning about it all. It's very interesting, really, though I prefer my dry scientific writings.

Anyway, you can consider becoming a more enlightened Christian, or you can consider becoming an enlightened atheist. However, if you are not interested in becoming enlightened, I ask that you remain a "Christian," or whatever the hell you are, please, so you won't taint the atheist population any further than it already has been. Atheists are getting more dismally illiterate every day, thanks to that idiot, Dawkins, where you once could have counted on an atheist at least to be interesting.

Well, you and I definitely agree on the worth of the book of Revelations.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

To be fair, Jesus did talk about us receiving eternal life after we die. Which sounds a bit of a logical contradiction, but you know what I mean. We could easily be given eternal life somewhere nasty. Like Tottenham...

It is true that the Pit was prepared for Lucifer and his minions, not humans, though this is the crazy half of the bible (the older one), so it's nowhere near as reliable. Hell with the lakes of fire and brimstone and the devils poking you with pointy sticks is largely from Dante. But here's a philosophical question - what is the "true" religion? Is it the words in a book, or the thoughts in the head? Millions of Christians believe in some capacity in a Hell, though the nature of it varies enormously. It's become as much a part of the religion as angels (also not in the bible, unless you count the seraphim, which are downright *weird*) and Christmas presents (Victorian, I think). Arguably, if the original is true, everyone is bound for Hell. We haven't sacrificed anything in centuries.

We ought to get together and start a religion, with the single basic commandment, "please try to be somewhat literate."

Well, the whole point is that Christ is the ultimate sacrifice according to Christianity, which is why we got a "get out of hell free card."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Sounds cool to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

This question has triggered church schisms and caused countless excommunications and blasphemy trials over the centuries You will get very different answers depending on whom you ask, and none of these answers make any rational sense to me.