How “Nice guys” are made, The ultimate post

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yesplease - i think you're over generalizing there...

Now that point I disagree with. Define "fashion sense"

troymaclure, who I might remember from such films as Christmas Ape, Christmas Ape Goes To Summer Camp, and The Contrabulous Fabtraption of Professor Horatio Hufnagel. I generalized so much I came back around into negative generalizations and wound up with a perfectly balanced, partisan opinion. Anyone who says otherwise is a Commie Bastard. With no dad.

lol... er you know i was being ironic... you where making a good point, via irony about generalising and so i interjected some levity into the situation via some more irony.
ps:- please ignore if your above post was also ironic... *scratches head, i is currently going through nicotine withdrawl and it's addling my brain.

Just to put this in perspective, I've had eight cups 'o coffee. It'sallgood...
I should add that I love beating jokes until they're dead, no joke.

Wow! I'm surprised to see how this thread has evolved into an anti-asperger hatepit.
The generalizations presented on the previous pages are mindless rants. ASD is a spectrum disorder, which means that there are several degrees. One could be extremely close to have a neurotypical behaviour and still fit within the asperger spectrum, while another individual can be so severely handicapped that he is closer to classical autism than asperger. Therefore, generalization is pointless. One aspie may percieve the "Help me, I'm dying" message perfectly, while another may scratch his head.

Other than this slightly provoking generalization issue, it seems that many good points have surfaced in this discussion. Concerning the "potential wife" situation, I fell victim to that in an earlier relationship. But this was a long term relationship and the issue was not adressed until very late in the relationship so I don't know if that can be looked upon as a part of the "nice guy" behaviour. Eventually, most people do want to get married after some time spent with someone they fit PERFECTLY together with, right?

Lets take a look at how a good looking woman is approached. As mentioned (I think by Mordy?) she is approached so many times throughout the day and in ways so silly that she has no problems seeing the sexual intention behind it. The "Can I buy you a drink?" pickup line is by far the most obvious one. Of course she will interpret the message as it really is meant: "Want to trade your vagina for a beer?". There is no wonder girls are digusted by guys projecting them as prostitutes.
Girls want to be viewed as interesting human beings. This is because they have no problem getting sex. They make the rules and naturally, they will sort out the best mate. However, guys with the alpha male traits have turned the tables. A woman finds his exciting because she will think "Who is this guy? He is not like those other losers trying to buy or sweet talk me into sex".

I think most AS guys, at least those on the milder end of the spectrum have great potential in becoming good at social interaction. Some may even become good enough to attract just as good looking women as a neurotypical pickup artist is.

Heh, either that or maybe reality's got a neo-con bias .

That's a generalization that isn't true in many cases. I'm completely able to criticize myself and often do, but I often don't like it when others criticize me. Then again, it's usually NTs that are criticizing me and it's usually for stupid reasons. On the other hand, many NTs don't even care if you criticize them (or at least they pretend not to), saying that your opinion doesn't matter.

I thought I'd throw this into the mix, quoted from "The Fast Seduction 101 Player Guide":


Nice guys vs jerks

The debate of "nice guys vs. jerks" has been raging for quite a long time. The nature of being a "nice guy", however, is commonly misunderstood. It is believed that being polite, considerate, friendly, tender, romantic, etc. is what being a "nice guy" is all about and thus those qualities should be avoided, as it is the "jerk", the rude, the inconsiderate, the impolite, the rough guy who always gets the girl while the "nice guy" is waiting outside in the pouring rain with flowers in his hand.

It doesn't mean that women prefer rude over polite, inconsiderate over considerate, etc. It all becomes clear when we look at a very important issue often overlooked when trying to define what makes the "jerks" beat the "nice guys" when it comes to getting the girls. It is sexuality - the "jerks" are not afraid to show that they are sexual beings, while the "nice guys" hide their sexuality as a part of their agenda of being friendly, polite, and courteous towards women.

Peta, Clifford's Seduction Newsletter: "It dawned on me as it has, that the androgyny is key. Women fall for bastards because they don't turn off the sexuality.. "nice" guys think women will be terrified of their sexuality, so they turn it off and all they get is women responding to their androgyny [sending all nice guys to LJBF (lets just be friends)-land]"

Taken from here: http://www.fastseduction.com/guide/

Even though I'm high functioning, I have to battle against being the "nice guy" every day. Here's another article that I found interesting and thought provoking:



Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS


You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless b***h for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like s**t, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually payed some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that get's attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.

Taken from here: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys.shtml

This might be true of nice-guy NT but not of an Aspie. Telling by this post you must be a NT because I don’t think that an Aspie would have written this.

Does an aspie have to find petty things to argue about while making a conscious effort to ignore the more interesting things like why does she think the truth of the universe is Christianity. At the end if the day, I don’t care if we go to pizza hut or get a Chinese takeaway.

The things I care about like my financial situation but money she don’t care because woman don’t like talking about money. Woman don’t like scientific truth because science is so mutual and un bias.

I already told you guys why woman don’t like nice guys, but will you listen?

Heheheh, more heartlessbitch.com, I think that's getting to be the standard for anytime this topic comes up - don't know why though. I think a better name for that is selfrationalizingbitch, just because when you try narrow a really wide phenomenon like that and funnel it all down to into the lowest common denominator it means at least IMO that they're running from the bottom-line truth themselves.

Egads i should stay out of this topic, but yet again i'll succumb simply because i'm sick of people assuming that being "nice" is a failing.

Not all nice guys are insecure! Actually i think the opposite, the most insecure people i know tend to be the biggest jerks... why? Because they have such low opinions of themselves that the only way they can feel better is by bringing other people down to their level.

Quote for ya.
"Don't bring me down, raise yourself up" - anon

I don't know perhaps i'm taking this too personally but i'm a self-confessed nice guy and indeed it's true i haven't been with that many ladies as a result. But I get to like what i see when I look in the mirror. Not only that but that rants assertion that "nice guys" have a big sign over our heads saying "i'm insecure" take advantage of me doesn't ring true. Everyone i know gets messed over, even the self-confessed players. Yet ya know it's surprising sometimes but i've come to realise that nearly all of the ladies who have every really gotten to know me have at one point or another made a real effort to help me out in certain situations. Even when I haven't asked them for help and havne't seen them in a while without fail the people who i've been nice to, and who are nice themselves have let me know they still care and i kinda doubt they do that for the "alpha males". Sure I may not have slept around as much as most people my age but I think being "nice" like genuinely "nice" not "insecure" or "needy" just nice because I honestly believe in that love>hate and would prefer helping people to hindering them has worked out. I've been a good influence in peoples lives, made other peoples lives better and sometimes they even reciprocate. Sometimes they don't, ah well i can handle that. Fact remains I still like who I am and am not intending upon changing this part o' meself.

ps:- This thread is strangley political, I'm definately noticing a neo-con bias to reality here...

The problem I have with hartlessbitches.com is that they assume they all types of niceguy.

I appear to be a Niceguy and also Pigheaded and know-all. I think your typical heartless pitch don't like either.

I still don't see neo-con, liberal, or anything. If anything I'd think that a neo-con (part prerequisit being a diehard christian) would be that they'd treat their women the way god would want to treat them - ie. very well and as equal. That and if some do treat their women badly or act like complete jerks I'd guarantee its 50/50 on par with far the far left and even the center. The more I hear neo-con related to this subject the more I really think people here really don't know anything about conservatives in general aside from what they personally sear about.

What I do agree with you on is that being a nice guy in terms of that in and of itself is something you do because you prefer to see betterment of society, would like to be a positive influence on the world, not cause static and drama, and in general your going with the positive ethics that you were either raised on or that you want out of yourself. Yeah, you also find a lot of women who want to be good acquaintances as well. Also I think heartlessbitch is a joke because, like I said a while ago they try to some it up as 'all' nice guys and they try to iron anyone who's just a legitimate good person out with the guilt and burden of misperception - ie. if your misread and we think this of this behavior then you deserve to be misread and treated as dishonest, conniving, etc.

Getting back to the alpha thing though, when you look at the guys who are nice, mild mannered, and do succeed they tend to either have alpha (ie. strong athletic talent or social skills) or just a lot of money. I don't think its quite as much a security thing just because whether your really secure, really insecure - there's someone out there of the opposite sex who has it together just as well or is just as messed up. I think our society has a real habit of trying to take the people who they wanted to edge out in the first place and just hammering on em until they're egos and wills are completely broken - part of that is going all out on em, telling them how groveling and pathetic they are, even when its not true, because part of it all is trying to convince them that it is. Overall alpha is what wins most of the time and when you don't have it (which of course is just as much sheer luck as having it). This notion is not neo-con, neo-nazi, in fact I really wish I didn't have to believe it at all because it depresses the heck out of me (mainly on the side of how much my ideas on our potential as a race has really taken a dive). So why do I even believe in alpha winning or in genetics/eugenics? I have a real problem with creating my own reality just to please myself and when something doesn't add up right it digs at me because I know that lying to myself further destroys my ability to cope and find away through things in life.

heh after reading this i feel its like saying to someone in a wheelchair "get up an walk! girls like guys who can walk"