agmoie
Supporting Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2005
Posts: 362
Location: Britain
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Sora
Waaait. If you say it like this, then I say: I am treated like a NT, which is the whole problem of being autistic. I'm not NT and I fail life being treated like the NT.
quote]
Obviously I mean we should be given equality of treatment-as in for instance job interviews where our percieved lack of NT body language and/or eye contact should not be held against us and jobs denied us.
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Nan
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 4357
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| agmoie wrote: | [quote="Sora
Waaait. If you say it like this, then I say: I am treated like a NT, which is the whole problem of being autistic. I'm not NT and I fail life being treated like the NT.
quote]
Obviously I mean we should be given equality of treatment-as in for instance job interviews where our percieved lack of NT body language and/or eye contact should not be held against us and jobs denied us. |
Of course. But the world is not there yet. It is just now becoming educated as to what Aspergers and Autism actually is/are. I doubt it will change all that much, though, even with publicity.
You do have to realize that it's not just being Aspie or being NT in the job market. There are interviewers who will not like someone's accent or speech patterns (someone's too lower-class or upper-class or....). Or appearance. Or their background - they come from the "wrong" place or people. Or where they went to school. Or that they're too pushy, or too shy. Or that they're a man. Or a woman. Or indeterminable. That is, unfortunately, part of the human condition.
We can want people to be color/race/ethnicity/sexual orientation/ability/etc./etc./etc. blind all we want, but it's highly unlikely that it's going to happen in my lifetime, and probably my grandkids' lifetimes (assuming I ever have any). I dislike intensely knowing that my Aspie traits have shot me down in interviews - and they have, no question about that. But that's the only game in town. So, yes, think of it as an injustice. It is. But realize that you had better do what you can to play the game, because that's your option. Play it, or sit on the side and go nowhere. [Or opt out, and create your own game.] |
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AspieDave
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Joined: Oct 23, 2007
Posts: 568
Location: Traverse City, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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If you're referring SPECIFICALLY to Asperger's, most to all the one's I've known are not "disabled" by autism. Several, however, have been significantly impaired by a co-morbid disorder's such as bi-polar or OCD/Tourette's. Aspie's may often suffer "career crash" because of their inability to fit into a group. Most that I've known (who are not impacted by a co-morbid disorder) have had a succession of mostly minimum wage jobs, but are usually able to find full employment. Just not get payed well. As they learn to 'play the corporate game' they begin to stick with one employer for longer periods and start climbing the promotion ladder. Those who do have problems with a co-morbid may be on disability. I've don't think I've ever seen that "just because of Asperger's". Come to think of it, that "succession of mostly minimum wage jobs" sounds like most writer's I've heard of. Especially science fiction writers.... 
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5378
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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It is only a difference.
However, this difference makes things very hard, and cases in which the AS traits are strong really makes an impairment and what you would call it a disability in its technical meaning.
Of course, it is mostly of the way the world is designed to give the NT an advantage academically and in work. But even if the cause for the disability is not the syndrome itself but the discrimination against people with the syndrome, the disability is still there.
Edit: AS with sensitivity problems are not able to handle certain kinds of jobs. |
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howzat
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Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 1722
Location: Hornsey North London
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't label myself disabled as i have no problem wid mobility. |
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Asterisp
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 16, 2007
Posts: 900
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Sora wrote: |
Waaait. If you say it like this, then I say: I am treated like a NT, which is the whole problem of being autistic. I'm not NT and I fail life being treated like the NT.
But I'm all for human rights applying to people with AS too, since they're, well, err, unalienable human rights. |
Something about positive discrimination.... is it good or too good.
But I know also normal people that would benefit from some measures that would make AS people also more comfortable. Some help getting a job, like a course with interview techniques would be good for a lot of people.
So I view AS as an difficulty, a tough one however. And difficulties can be overcome with help, sometimes a lot of help, but still. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I am disabled in law. Because many of us are disabled we have certain concessions made. Sometimes I decide to make them work for me. I'm disabled so I'm not unnecessarily putting myself out/at risk if I cannot do something. |
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nominalist
Member of the Baha'i Faith
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Age: 57
Posts: 2299
Location: The Kansas suburbs of Kansas City (originally from NYC)
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Tilkor
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Age: 39
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Couple of things comes to mind on this subject here.
First off, AS is, in my opinion, a disability. To use the Wheelchair analagy, the guy in the wheelchair can't work in certain fields (ie. armed forces, most trades, etc.). However, there's nothing stopping the guy from, say, working in an office environment (ie. Computer Programmer, Accountant, lawyer, etc.). Because symptoms can varry in severity between each Aspie, it's probably difficult to find the perfect niche.
Second... I don't get a second check because I've got Aspergers, and (again, my opinion, so don't take this personally) I don't think that other Aspies needs to either (unless if there's additional issues, like parallasys, Bipolar Mood Disorder, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, etc.) However, if an individual with ASD is disenfranchised from having an appropriate career, then something like a Disability Tax Credit is more appropriate.
Oh, just for an interesting point here, in Canada, somebody with Aspergers can apply for the Disability Tax Credit. I don't know about other countries, but I would suggest anybody checking into something like that. My recomendations, if your in Canada (or a country that has it's own version of the Disability Tax Credit), for what it's worth, is to get somebody to sit down with you (like an Accountant or a Psychologist that knows how to do this) and help get you started in setting it up. |
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Toe
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| agmoie wrote: | | Obviously I mean we should be given equality of treatment-as in for instance job interviews where our percieved lack of NT body language and/or eye contact should not be held against us and jobs denied us. |
An interview is a test to see how well you will perform as an employee, so an interviewer may have good reasons to use body language as a criterion. For example, in direct sales, eye contact is absolutely crucial and has a direct effect on the bottom line. (And I suspect most aspies would agree that they suck at direct sales.)
There are plenty of other jobs too where subtle nonverbal communication is extremely important. It can be said that it is a significant factor in every white-collar job, where both intercorporate affairs and office politics have big effects on the business as a whole.
The big notable exception is Information Technology, where NTs realize that their "geeks" need to be kept in "the back room," because they're worth hiring despite their poor social fit. Some companies (particularly .coms) go as far as to have a whole different set of rules for their I.T. staff, such as different dress code, different working hours, etc. And some just let them telecommute.
Ugly people have a real hard time getting jobs as fashion models. I'm not sure society owes them money for not being born gorgeous. Or like Nan said above, if you suck at math, you shouldn't expect to get a job as an accountant. |
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Brittany2907
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Joined: Jun 10, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 4920
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Asperger's and Being Considered "Disabled" |
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| Silver_Meteor wrote: | | If Asperger's Syndrome is not a disability but simply a difference then by logical argument is it unfair if someone with Asperger's is considered disabled and receiving a disability check? |
I don't think it's unfair...as Aspergers can vary in severity amoung each person with it and some might have a more "disabling" form of it than others.
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NewportBeachDude
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Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Asperger's and Being Considered "Disabled" |
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| Silver_Meteor wrote: | | If Asperger's Syndrome is not a disability but simply a difference then by logical argument is it unfair if someone with Asperger's is considered disabled and receiving a disability check? |
Yes, it's unfair. If you claim Asperger is not a disability, yet accept SSI, you're a hypocrit and a crook because it's fraud. I also feel that those on the "There's nothing wrong with us" bandwagon have no right to accept food stamps, welfare, government subsidized housing or anything else if they can't get a job due their symptoms because afterall, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM.  If there's nothing wrong, get out there and work like the rest of us.
We all know there's a lot of Asperger people out there who could use the help. When there's a movement to make Asperger NOT a disability as many here want, you are harming all of the Asperger people who are truly disabled and will never, ever get help if Asperger were declared NOT a disability. And, I don't mean to pick on Aspergers only, because there are whacks in the Neurodiveristy movement of Autism who believe the same thing. Some are pushing for neurodiveristy and believe Autism should not be seen as a disability, yet have no problem accepting checks on behalf of their adult, Autistic kids who live at home and need 24/7 care. Shame! |
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frields
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 09, 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Asperger's and Being Considered "Disabled" |
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| NewportBeachDude wrote: | | Silver_Meteor wrote: | | If Asperger's Syndrome is not a disability but simply a difference then by logical argument is it unfair if someone with Asperger's is considered disabled and receiving a disability check? |
Yes, it's unfair. If you claim Asperger is not a disability, yet accept SSI, you're a hypocrit and a crook because it's fraud. I also feel that those on the "There's nothing wrong with us" bandwagon have no right to accept food stamps, welfare, government subsidized housing or anything else if they can't get a job due their symptoms because afterall, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM. If there's nothing wrong, get out there and work like the rest of us.
We all know there's a lot of Asperger people out there who could use the help. When there's a movement to make Asperger NOT a disability as many here want, you are harming all of the Asperger people who are truly disabled and will never, ever get help if Asperger were declared NOT a disability. And, I don't mean to pick on Aspergers only, because there are whacks in the Neurodiveristy movement of Autism who believe the same thing. Some are pushing for neurodiveristy and believe Autism should not be seen as a disability, yet have no problem accepting checks on behalf of their adult, Autistic kids who live at home and need 24/7 care. Shame! |
Great points. I've been impressed with your contributions. I've been reading many over the last couple weeks - I was sent a bunch of links to some threads. Also impressed at Joeker's contributions. |
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RampionRampage
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Joined: Feb 04, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 746
Location: Greater Philly Area, PA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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people tend to think 'disability' is a negative word - with 'dis' preceding 'able', i can see why. but if you look at its definition and not it's negative-sounding prefix, it is pretty accurate.
AS may not be inherently disabling - not everyone who has it is disabled. but some people who have it are, in terms of society, disabled. this is not the same as 'unable'. disability can be a temporary situation. a person with a disability may find themselves, in the future, able to do things they were previously unable to do.
people involved in Deaf Culture (not all deaf people think in terms of "Deaf" like it's a separate nationality) hate being called disabled, and feel that they are not at all disabled, but i'm willing to bet most people here would disagree.
the word itself is the problem, not the definition. which is really annoying, because you can change the name but it still means the same thing.
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Sora
away away
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 5645
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| agmoie wrote: | [quote="Sora]
Waaait. If you say it like this, then I say: I am treated like a NT, which is the whole problem of being autistic. I'm not NT and I fail life being treated like the NT.
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Obviously I mean we should be given equality of treatment-as in for instance job interviews where our percieved lack of NT body language and/or eye contact should not be held against us and jobs denied us.[/quote]
Ah, okay, but that's another problem. It's a perfect example by the way - imagining that it's a job interview and the person that applies for the job does have AS and can't cope with the non-verbal communication that comes natural to NT, then the NT must know of the diagnosis. Or else he considers the person with AS as a horrible, unfit applicant that probably can't cope with the job.
But if the person explains about AS, but says that in his or her case it's certainly not a disability, then the NT will probably think: does the person lie? Will I encounter problems with that person due to AS, because it's impossible to know whether the person tells the truth that AS doesn't give them any problems? AS is a disability in many cases, so how will the NT know that the person from the interview is one of the third or so that has AS but gets along okay?
The NT just can't accept this statement unless he's well educated and experienced in the field of autism. And even then, he can only make a guess based on what he's told - and people exploit every loophole, which makes basing a job application on what someone claims a risky business. |
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