Raised by Aspergers parent

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Of course they are responsible. if I am responsible for mine, they are too. If someone isn't responsible, then they need to be in a group home or have a carer with them 24/7 and lose their adult rights because they wouldn't be capable or they need to be in a hospital.




No it's not. It's okay to be angry of course but it's not okay for them to treat others bad and be abusive because of it. It's how we express it and handle it is when it becomes right or wrong.



Anyone can be mean.



Of course. I have been bullied by other aspies and I knew a kid with AS who I call Frankie and he was very mean and abusive and manipulative and a pathological liar. There have been other kids with disabilities who were mean to me when I was a child and they were just normal kids. My husband was picked on by kids who had intellectual disabilities when he was in special ed, back then they stuck all kids with disabilities in one room and isolated them from the normal kids.



He could be a mean guy because he hates himself and he has given up so he feels better if he is just mean.



I don't think all aspie parents are mean and abusive and there are plenty of mean NT parents out there too and I can agree that autism can contribute to the abuse (look around in the other threads here by parents who talk about how abusive their kids get but yet if they acted that way to their child, it would be child abuse so how is it any different doing it to a parent so abuse is abuse) and I think any mental illness can contribute to it too and anxiety and someone can be normal and not have any mental illness or any neurological disorders and still be mean and abusive to their kids. But not everyone with a mental illness or with a neurological disorder are mean and abusive to their kids.

My opinion: An adult who chooses to propagate has responsibilities not to be an abusive, jerk to those children he creates. Period. End stop.

How much anyone chooses to weight mitigating factors? I mean, I don't know. Parent's can be mean and abusive b/c they are jerks (so let's say personality), if they are ill because they are in pain. because they have has some kind of traumatic history; and if they have some kind of mental illness (which I do not lump AS into by the way.)

If whatever it is that makes a person a mean, abusive person predates procreation, they ought not to have kids. In the days of yore (and to a lesser degree, even today) culture and peer pressure push/ed people to marry and have kids, regardless of suitability. Even with this social pressure. living species are programmed to replicate to allow the species to survive.

I don't view this to mean aspies should not reproduce (obviously, given my screen name) because I do not accept the premise that seems to underline your post that being an aspie makes one an abusive jerk. I don't view autism as a mitigating factor. As a parent one has responsibilities, and that includes not being a jerk to ones kids. If one is a jerk, doesn't see it, (common among jerks, I mean who really self-identifies as a jerk) regardless of neurology, I don't understand a person voluntarily procreating with such a person, either. That person has at minimum a responsibility to protect the child from an abusive parent or really any abusive person that is in their lives.

The only one who has no responsibility in the matter, is the child. The child did not choose to be born, did not choose his/her parents and should have a right to a non-abusive childhood.

As this thread moves onward, I still fail to see how AS or NT is even the germain issue when it comes to abuse. Abusive toxic people ought not to be tolerated. Full stop. An adult child has this option. A minor child does not.

If it is, "Why does mom/dad do this quirky thing? or "My parent is not abusive, but I have trouble dealing with it when he/she does this thing..." then knowing NT or AS neurology can give you insight as to causes and solutions. That does not sound like what you are talking about.

Abuse is abuse. Full stop, and it does not matter what the neurological profile of that person happens to be. You don't have to put up with it or forgive it.

Thank you League Girl and ASD Mommy for the replies. I want to respond but I don't have much time right now. I have more comments and questions. Please, check in later in the day so that we can continue to talk. It will be a few hours from now, but I don't want to ignore or drop the ball on this. Your answers were very helpful. Thank you

OK, I can do this quickly right now with a copy and paste. This is a comment that I posted on another discussion board. And I haven't gotten any insight as to what the heck was going on with this "tickle monster" issue. It totally confuses me. I'll copy and paste here (I know kind of awkward) but, it's quite descriptive:



I was raised by Asperger's and I am traumatized by it. Do you know of any information out there from the kids perspective, having been raised by an Aspie. I feel so alone. For example: He had patterned behaviors for interacting with me (as a kid) that seemed acceptable to society. Tickling was one of the specific ways that he'd make a deliberate attempt to connect with me and "play" with me. Me enjoying it, wanting to be tickled, or me even being interested in playing that way in that moment, didn't matter. If he wanted to tickle me, there was no stopping him. He would tickle me to the point where I was gasping for air, fighting him off, trying to bite him, kick him, screaming for help (from my mom), all along with a gigglish, freaked out, desperate cry, were signals, behaviors, indicators that he didn't (wasn't able to) clue into. He couldn't read me so he'd tickle me until I was bruised under my arm pits, on my ribs, on my legs, and sore for days. My mom would come to my assistance whenever this happened and she would physically help him stop. When she'd try to capture his attention and snap him out of his own little world, he would look at her like as if he'd been in a dream land and he obviously could barely comprehend what was going on when she'd try to tell him that crying means "stop", screaming means that child doesn't like it. He was fairly easily re-directed by her to focus on another thing, like TV shows. Even though, he was in his own world, trying to attempt to play with me, and doing what seemed appropriate, I experienced the trauma of restraint, powerlessness, and pain. He even tried to interact with me in this way sometimes at the dinner table, or in a movie theatre, etc. when the situation did not call for running around, being a tickle monster, and being loud. He was like a child. My mom, would have to supervise him closely, intervene, tell him "not now, sit down", and she'd help him behave appropriately for the environment. This was embarrassing to me and scary to me (the thought of her not being there to help keep him under control). So, this is just an example (one of many other types). I know that many Aspies would never even want to touch another person and make them scream (noise issues), but there is a spectrum and he's somewhere on that spectrum where screaming didn't register to him. He didn't seem to acknowledge it. Or could he just be an ass?? I ask myself this all the time. Could he have been manipulating a passive aggressive way of disciplining me, under the guise of tickling, because I had pissed him off in some kind of way? He didn't have normal communication skills. He didn't communicate rules, boundaries, what I should do and shouldn't do. So, I have a sneaking suspicion that, perhaps, because he couldn't verbally communicate, "honey don't do that, it's bugging me", he'd rather attack me as the "tickle monster" and inflict pain on me rather than being the "real" dad and spanking me. Sometimes he seems so smart, he's diabolical. Other times, he's clueless. Either way, it was weird. Weird to be raised by Aspergers. Any info. that you may have stumbled across would be helpful to help me understand what the hell was going on. My email address is: [email protected]

End

OK so that was it. It was weird. It's like as if at times my dad had enough awareness, after behaving inappropriately, to say or do things that made me think he did it on purpose to be mean. How can that be Aspergers? Unless, he is Aspergers but has discovered diabolical ways to be mean, or he has discovered phrases to say that make him seem conscious. I don't know...

I don't have links but I know I have read that this tickling "game" is a real form of actual bullying and can be really sadistic in nature. I can see why you are parsing it through AS to see if you can attribute this to a lack of awareness as opposed to bullying. I don't think AS is even close to being the major issue you had, at least not from this example.

AS is as you have probably read is a spectrum. I have no way of knowing if any of this has to do with a lack of awareness of physical boundaries or appropriateness vs the NT answer which would be clear-cut bullying.

Did your father use a diagnosis as an excuse or did your mother do so in order to excuse him. To me, if your mother enabled him, that is a big part of the problem, here. Her trying to rescue you while she happened to be there is not sufficient anymore than it would be OK if one parent prevented child sexual abuse while she happened to be there, but allowed the other parent access knowing that it was going on.

I tend to be curious about why so many people with bad parents where (one or both) are aspies latch on specifically to the AS. I am asking that respectfully b/c as someone who is informally diagnosed and also a parent, it is a puzzlement to me. Does it provide some kind of relief to think bad treatment is the result of a disorder as opposed to just meanness or bad parenting?

It is not that I don't think AS can affect parenting---it does---in cases like noise tolerance for bickering children--and the ability to make playdates---you know that kind of thing. It doesn't make someone cruel. Generally speaking, a lot of us are capable of making adjustments when something is pointed out to us; if we come off in a way we don't intend or something like that. Some are not. it depends on where on the spectrum on sits; what ones specific strengths and weaknesses are, and honestly rigidity is a huge factor. If someone is very rigid, it is obvioulsy hard to make adjustments both in thought and mind.

AS does not have a correlation to bullying or sadism. People with AS are far more likely to be the victim of bullying than the perpetrator.

I don't how all of this fits in with the rest of your childhood.

One of my son's ungoing issues is impulse control, which when mixed with perseveration, often includes not hearing people telling him to stop when he's hurting or upsetting them. He can indeed come across as a bully at times.

That is an extrememly good question. I would be interested to hear the responses of others to this question.

I genuinely belive that both of my parents are on the spectrum, but I don't think that I would have made the connection if my Mum hadn't watched a program on tv about autism and said that it explained a lot about our family. She was the one who brought the idea of autism to the fore. This was before the internet was widely used and it wasn't until 10 years later that I started to do some research online and find communities like this.

I felt that autism fit the bill because my parents have theory of mind issues and they need to be told things in a specific way because they take things very literally. They have other issues that are not related to autism, some stem from how they were brought up and the kinds of families they come from. It probably didn't help that they were misunderstood by their own parents and so developed co-morbid problems that are not directly sypmtoms of autism

I've got to say that I get on a lot better with my parents now that I am in my 30s. I'm not sure what changed. I think we all just understand our lives so much better now. For me there was light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes.
And I think the same thing applies to spouses, and is the reason for a lot of the hatred spewed on ASPartners.

I think many people with bad parents (Aspie or NT) tend to pick partners that are very similar to the bad parent in an effort to get it right. They want to win that type of person over to show themselves they are loveable.

ASD Mommy and Willaful, I have responses for you and I am not sure if I'm clicking on the right buttons so, I'll put it into a couple of paragraphs here on this post.... still figuring out how to work this forum thingy.

ASD Mommy: You are right about a lot of things. I think he wasn't able to read my behavioral (screaming, struggling) and verbal (my confusing 1/2 giggling scared to death cries and also yelling stop!! !) cues, so he proceeded to enjoy himself tickling me.

I also think my father is both AS and sadistic. I'm coming to terms that there are parts of this that he is not responsible for such as his inability to read cues, his impulse-control issues, and his awkward social decisions such as trying to play tickle monster when we are in a restaurant or something like that and it is too rambunctious for the environment. But, he is also a very hurt individual who was bullied himself by a sadistic older brother and public school kids who picked on him because he was in the special needs class. He had built up aggression to take out.

Regardless of the weaknesses of Aspergers, I am coming to believe that he had a very deliberate mean streak. The low impulse control contributed toward him expressing passive aggressive aggression. He felt the need to victimize someone (a child being an easy target). He was smart enough to attempt to do it under the guise of "tickling" so that others would be more forgiving of his actions and he could have the excuse of "I couldn't tell she didn't like it. I thought she was squirming because she was happy, " and he could play dumb. Is he dumb, or is he just truly clueless??? I am coming to believe that there isn't a straight line between the times that he was playing dumb and he truly was clueless, but that they interweave. I'm thinking that he is an Aspie with legitimate and deliberate anger, abuse, and aggressive issues.

Willafull: Exactly, that is exactly what happened a lot. There is a part of this where he didn't seem to realize that he was inflicting pain. His ability to determine when the restraint and pressure was too much, didn't seem to register to him. He used the force he would use for wrestling with a grown man, on a child's thin tender frame. The ability to temper his physical power (be gentle) was not something he could calculate. This made him a bumbling buffoon in many ways.

It also came out in tone of voice. His inability to temper the strength of his voice was awkward also. He was loud, rude, and sarcastic at times when the situation did not call for such a strong reaction. Then at other times, he was meek, shy, and mouse-like. When asked to speak up a little, he'd yell angrily out of frustration rather than just merely elevating the volume of his voice a little, yet keeping a nice and polite tone. Uggh!

As a child subjected to this I took the blame constantly, thinking that it was my fault that Daddy didn't understand he was hurting me. I took the blame that Daddy had to yell at me for me to hear him. Another weird thing he'd do is rile me up, get me all wild, loud, and hyper in the house (and I thought we were having a good fun time) and then all of sudden just instantly want to shut me up and turn me off. At those times, he'd just call for my mom to "take care of the situation" and he'd instantly just reject me. I'd be left there disappointed, confused, and wondering what I had done to make him mad again. Who knows, perhaps, I had stepped on his toe or something and rather than him having the ability to communicate to me that his toe was hurting and I needed to start calming down, he'd just jerk up and leave the room, call for my mom to handle me, and walk away. Weird. Just weird. The ability to communicate boundaries all along the way, simply did not exist. He was hot or cold, no in between.

ASD Mommy: I think that sometimes I want to put blame on AS because I've given up on my father being held accountable. It's almost a denial of responsibility on his part. It's also a denial on my part because after all I don't want to believe that my father could really have been that abusive, mean, and diabolical. I want to believe that I was loved and couldn't possibly have been hated that much. Although, now a days, he's made it very clear to everyone that he hates me and I'm a big disappointment to him. And I hear him loud and clear, have declined from his life, and left him alone to isolate (how convenient for someone who doesn't like to be around other people anyways). He lacks the ability to forgive me for things I did when I was 17 years old. I'm 43 now. If we were to have a conversation with him today, nothing in my life that is good would matter, only what I did when I was 17. Is it comprehension problems that keep him stuck there? Maybe? Is it a willful, deliberate, rigid, stubbornness, that keeps him stuck there? Maybe? Maybe, it's a twisting (undefined intermingling) of both, in which I will never be able to differentiate.

My mother is a saint. I don't think she knew what she was getting into and what she'd be left with as he has grown older. They have an admirable love story. He was in the special needs class and struggled with reading and writing (dyslexia) and she had volunteered to tutor special needs kids because she was a nice, good girl, with a caring heart. Her jock boyfriend was kind of boring to her, but my dad and his quirky ways made her laugh. Back then, he was nice and not full of hate and meanness. He was also sensitive and authentic as they moved along in their relationship from the focus on academics to a focus on building a friendship. She saw his awkwardness socially, but she also had appreciation for how "raw" he was. He would to charming things such as sing songs to her in front of people and he didn't seem to care who was watching and making fun of him. Sweet. He was high functioning enough to work in an auto repair shop and hold a job. He was a steady provider. The family saw in him what she saw in him and they all just kind of tolerated his social awkwardness, such as telling jokes when no one wanted to laugh at one liner jokes anymore. In the beginning, he was a very playful father. But, he stayed like a kid and I grew up. And as the grumpy, old man, syndrome has come into play, more and more, the meaner and more isolating he is. Now, he spends a good 16 hours a day cocooned on the couch with blankets over his head, in the dark, shut down, and suffering from migraines (or could that be the excuse he is using??). It's very sad. My mom did the best she could raising me and keeping supervision of him, but there were slips. She's a saint but not a super hero. I hope that helps give you some insight as to why someone would hook up with someone who has deficiencies and would not be able to be a fully responsible and participating parent. I think we get into things and don't realize, until we are well into it, that our mate is a child also.

Thinking about all of this and re-reading what I've written, I think my dad has a type of DNA. Ya know how a strand of DNA twirls around and has different elements weaved in. I think (these days) he's a mix of Aspergers, PTSD, diabolical abuse, mental abuse, emotionally disturbed, developmental delays, dyslexia, a cocooned dying butterfly, and a comedian. = Crazy making!! !

It sounds like your father is suffering from autistic burnout, which sometimes happens to adults. Basically, the tremendous effort of holding down a job and trying to be a "normal" father and husband has caught up with him. He has done as well as he could for as long as he could, and now he can do no more.

Yes, burnout. He's definitely burned out and suffering so much.

Rather than commenting on the pieces in the evolution of this discussion, I think I will comment on this.

Understanding this piece of your father, I believe, is your road to accepting the past and what you have now. That doesn't mean you have to stay in his life, especially since it sounds like it would be toxic for you to do so; this is about you reconciling your experiences and feelings.

I am not convinced he ever consciously meant to hurt you. You talk about him being in his own world, and I know from my son that there is this threshold that seems to get crossed, usually when there has been a build up of stress or sensory overload, and once crossed he is no longer in control. At all. What I've taught my son to do is recognize the signs leading up to that threshold, and pull off the road before getting there. Some people with ASD, however, never manage to learn how to do that; some just are not capable of it; and that is how I see your father. No doubt just the action itself, once started for any reason, was enough to push him across the threshold; I know that with my son those types of activities are simply off the table because they seem to jumble up his brain. However, it is also possible that he knew if he started he could cross the threshold, and that is why I agree that you can't completely discount the possibility that he had a mean streak, although I doubt you will ever know.

I will note that him saying now that he never liked you could well be defensive. I've seen that with a lot of people; they adjust their feelings and their view of history to make whatever conclusion is most convenient and least painful for them. They don't know any other way to cope, and failing to re-color the past would cause them pain beyond bearing. In your father's case, it would certainly be much more convenient to see your relationship as flawed from the start, than it would be to accept that he caused you pain.

Abuse comes from a place of deep pain, and there are many reasons to believe you father has deep, likely unacknowledged or specified, pain. Knowing that does not excuse the behavior, or mean you have to allow yourself to be subjected to it, but it does allow you to feel love for someone you know you have to keep walls up with, and to basically reconcile your experiences within your own heart and mind as you move forward. It sounds like he has always been a troubled man, faced with a world that is always confusing and often cruel to him, although I do find it sweet that your mother was willing to be a warm and kind light for him.

You can forgive him, but you don't have to see him or allow your kids to see him. You can accept that divide between knowing you care, while also knowing his outward behavior is toxic. Or maybe you make sure that you can control the limited contact you might still want to have; chose the time, place and circumstances. Not every regrettable difference and issue is solvable. That is just life.

I am sorry that a man who sounds like he had some wonderful sides to him ended up hurting you so profoundly. While no one is perfect, children need to grow up feeling at least safe around their own parents. My heart aches that you did not; I can't imagine that he ever wanted that for you, but for whatever reason that is what happened.

One of my goals with my son has been to make sure he doesn't have to grow up with a dark hole inside. For a variety of different reasons, it seems that far too many people with ASD are forced to do just that: grow up with a dark hole inside. I know my own father did, and my husband, to a smaller extent, too (although with them it was never as large your father's seems to have been). Only time will tell if I have succeeded, but that has been my goal since he was a baby. I don't want bitterness to creep in. I want the bright lights I see in him to rule his life, not the frustrations.

I might not know how to "love people right.

I might screw up, make a fool of myself, overstep my bounds, get used, and/or give people the creeps.

I stared down the CHOICE to become a bitter, mean, hateful person, more than once, and decided to take the chance of continuing to love.

I don't know how much pain a person can eat before they no longer have the will, or the ability, to make that choice.

But, while it might attract pain to you, I don't think ASD is enough of a disability in its own right to absolve one of the responsibility to "choose the light," as it were.

DW_a_Mom that is a beautiful post. Thank you for writing that. I agree with you. It is possible to love your parents and yet set needed boundaries. I now only see my parents once in a while and that seems to have helped our situation.

Thegoodlistener I totally relate to what you say about feeling that you grew up, but your father did not. I have that experience with both of my parents. I think that the teenage years were the most difficult because I needed adult guidance, but didn't have that support. I'm through that now and living in my 30s and have a different perspective on the world and my childhood seems a long way away from me now. I've got to a point where my sister and I talk about the good things we experienced growing up.

Smells and noises were my Mum's most difficult thing to deal with. She would all of a sudden completely change her temper and be angry at us and we didn't know why. We thought she was just being mean, but now I know that she had just hit a point were she was unable to cope.

As she's got older she has retreated into herself a lot and needs to spend a great deal of time cocooned away in bed in a darkened room. That makes me sad because she's not out enjoying herself, but on the other hand it is good that she has a place where she can go to unwind and block everything out.

I think that this forum has helped me a lot. I would encourage you to stick around and feel free to PM me if you want someone to talk to.