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YippySkippy
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11 Jul 2014, 10:35 am

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Oh wow! This is wrong on so many levels! I have perfectly *normal* social skills, thank you very much - but they are different from those of non-autistics. Any suggestion that I am "below normal" is disability-based discrimination.


Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. My son has terrible social skills and gets social skills training, and I'm really glad for it. I wish it had been offered to me when I was a child. My social skills are definitely below normal, and were even worse when I was younger.



ASDMommyASDKid
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11 Jul 2014, 10:40 am

Aspendos wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
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Sorry, but isn't it just as much victim blaming when autistic kids get bullied and are sent to social skills training (or even segregated schools)? Why do we accept that?


1) Because social skills training isn't a punishment. It's a way to learn how to avoid being a bully magnet, among other things.


YippySkippy wrote:
What is objectionable in this case is the fact that social skills training is being inappropriately suggested


How so? Why is it objectionable when the bullying is about race, but not when it is about neurological differences? If social skills training is "a way to learn how to avoid being a bully magnet" surely that would be true of all kinds of bullying. For example, black kids just need to behave more like white kids - and they won't be bullied (or the other way round). Social skills training *is* punishment of the victims. The correct approach would be to send the bullies into neurodiversity awareness training.


We have not had social skills training but it is more complicated than how not to be a bully magnet. There are things I did, looking back, that were bully attractants. I don't think I would have done things differently if I had known, with maybe only a couple of minor adjustments. It is not all about that, though, or it isn't supposed to be.

It is supposed to include things like learning how to tolerate group work, and keep yourself from controlling it all, if one is inclined to do that. etc., how to compromise with friends, how to figure out when to compromise, and when you should not. There is a lot of social skills that don't have anything to do with bullying avoidance.

Aspendos, I hope you do not mind me asking, but did you have social skills training and you found it unhelpful?

I am asking not to be nosy, but to find out about the experience. At some point my son might be at a point where the readiness will be there and I know he will need help. I don't know if this is something I can fake my way through teaching him beyond a certain point b/c my social skills are fairly poor. It would help to know from people who have gone through it, if there is anything of value being taught.



Aspendos
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11 Jul 2014, 11:11 am

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
Aspendos, I hope you do not mind me asking, but did you have social skills training and you found it unhelpful?

I am asking not to be nosy, but to find out about the experience. At some point my son might be at a point where the readiness will be there and I know he will need help. I don't know if this is something I can fake my way through teaching him beyond a certain point b/c my social skills are fairly poor. It would help to know from people who have gone through it, if there is anything of value being taught.


I was only diagnosed as an adult, at 38. No one of my generation was diagnosed with Asperger's as a child, let alone receiving any kind of social skills training. They did however offer me social skills training when I was diagnosed last year and put me on a waiting list. The list seems to be so long that I haven't heard from them since. I took a different direction and went into autistic self-advocacy instead. We don't need to teach autistic children that they are lacking, but we need to teach them self-esteem and the skills to stand up for themselves.

I was severely bullied throughout kindergarten and school (ages 5 to 16). Unfortunately, my parents also did the best they could to break any last remnant of self-esteem I might have had otherwise. I was their victim and I became everyone's victim at school. Even teachers participated in the bullying. I had nowhere to turn.

I find the suggestion insulting that the solution to this problem would have been that I became more like them.



ASDMommyASDKid
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11 Jul 2014, 11:34 am

I don't think social skill training is supposed to get the kid to be NT. It is just supposed to teach how to socialize more effectively.

The reality is we and our kids live in an NT world. If I were an American citizen who was born in Spain to American parents, I would still need to learn Spanish customs and the Spanish language. I would have to learn how to interact with Spanish people to function, but I would not need to become Spanish, or need to be ashamed of my citizenship or my non-Spanish ethnicity.



YippySkippy
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11 Jul 2014, 11:41 am

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I was severely bullied throughout kindergarten and school (ages 5 to 16). Unfortunately, my parents also did the best they could to break any last remnant of self-esteem I might have had otherwise. I was their victim and I became everyone's victim at school. Even teachers participated in the bullying. I had nowhere to turn.

I find the suggestion insulting that the solution to this problem would have been that I became more like them.


There's no excuse for parents and teachers to be cruel to a child, and social skills classes aren't meant to address abuse. They're meant to help a child have better interactions with their peers, which makes them more likely to have friends, which makes them less likely to be targeted by bullies. It also helps them recognize when they are being bullied. My son sometimes thinks bullies are his friends. He also sometimes treats other kids in ways that could be seen as bullying, without meaning to, and then wonders why they don't like him.
I'm sorry your parents and teachers let you down. They probably thought you were a normal kid who was being obstinate and could be punished into compliance. That's not an excuse, of course, but it is an explanation.



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11 Jul 2014, 11:52 am

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
I don't think social skill training is supposed to get the kid to be NT. It is just supposed to teach how to socialize more effectively.

The reality is we and our kids live in an NT world. If I were an American citizen who was born in Spain to American parents, I would still need to learn Spanish customs and the Spanish language. I would have to learn how to interact with Spanish people to function, but I would not need to become Spanish, or need to be ashamed of my citizenship or my non-Spanish ethnicity.


I'm sure you have seen the posts here and elsewhere in which autistics describe how they felt more accepted in a foreign country or culture than in the one they were born into. Myself, I spent six years abroad, in Africa and Europe, and people in other countries will *not* expect you to behave like them. Instead, they will ascribe autistic behaviour to you being a foreigner. Only in the country of citizenship is "normalization" expected of autistics.

In Senegal, I couldn't leave the house without being surrounded by people inviting me to their homes. *I* hadn't changed. The other people's behaviour toward me was different and made being autistic far less of a struggle.



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11 Jul 2014, 11:59 am

Aspendos wrote:
ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
I don't think social skill training is supposed to get the kid to be NT. It is just supposed to teach how to socialize more effectively.

The reality is we and our kids live in an NT world. If I were an American citizen who was born in Spain to American parents, I would still need to learn Spanish customs and the Spanish language. I would have to learn how to interact with Spanish people to function, but I would not need to become Spanish, or need to be ashamed of my citizenship or my non-Spanish ethnicity.


I'm sure you have seen the posts here and elsewhere in which autistics describe how they felt more accepted in a foreign country or culture than in the one they were born into. Myself, I spent six years abroad, in Africa and Europe, and people in other countries will *not* expect you to behave like them. Instead, they will ascribe autistic behaviour to you being a foreigner. Only in the country of citizenship is "normalization" expected of autistics.

In Senegal, I couldn't leave the house without being surrounded by people inviting me to their homes. *I* hadn't changed. The other people's behaviour toward me was different and made being autistic far less of a struggle.


I agree with that. Ones own kind will generally be tougher on a person b/c they expect you to know the rules. That said when you live in a foreign country you are still expected to try. If you try, your lapses won't be considered as offensive. That is why tourists who make no effort are generally disliked.



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11 Jul 2014, 12:00 pm

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
Aspendos wrote:
ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
I don't think social skill training is supposed to get the kid to be NT. It is just supposed to teach how to socialize more effectively.

The reality is we and our kids live in an NT world. If I were an American citizen who was born in Spain to American parents, I would still need to learn Spanish customs and the Spanish language. I would have to learn how to interact with Spanish people to function, but I would not need to become Spanish, or need to be ashamed of my citizenship or my non-Spanish ethnicity.


I'm sure you have seen the posts here and elsewhere in which autistics describe how they felt more accepted in a foreign country or culture than in the one they were born into. Myself, I spent six years abroad, in Africa and Europe, and people in other countries will *not* expect you to behave like them. Instead, they will ascribe autistic behaviour to you being a foreigner. Only in the country of citizenship is "normalization" expected of autistics.

In Senegal, I couldn't leave the house without being surrounded by people inviting me to their homes. *I* hadn't changed. The other people's behaviour toward me was different and made being autistic far less of a struggle.


I agree with that. Ones own kind will generally be tougher on a person b/c they expect you to know the rules. That said when you live in a foreign country you are still expected to try. If you try, your lapses won't be considered as offensive. That is why tourists who make no effort are generally disliked.


I never tried. I'm the same person regardless of where I live.



ASDMommyASDKid
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11 Jul 2014, 12:11 pm

Aspendos wrote:
I never tried. I'm the same person regardless of where I live.


Of course you are. That is the point. Do you also make no effort to learn anything about the culture? Learning about the culture does not change who you are.



Aspendos
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11 Jul 2014, 12:27 pm

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
Aspendos wrote:
I never tried. I'm the same person regardless of where I live.


Of course you are. That is the point. Do you also make no effort to learn anything about the culture? Learning about the culture does not change who you are.


Learning about the culture doesn't change how I behave. I realize that I'm not part of that culture, and I won't pretend I am.



cubedemon6073
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11 Jul 2014, 1:15 pm

ASDmommy, here is where the problem is as far as I see it. In the end, we can't be something we are not. This will catch up to us.

Yes, I agree one should learn proper manners like saying please, thank you, excuse me, etc. Basic manners and Basic human decency yes. Proper behavior yes. I'm even willing to learn how to shake hands properly and learn how to do my grip. I will even change certain stims if I have to. I am pretty open to new ideas and consider myself flexible. I don't know how accurate that is.

There is a line in the sand. What is expected is for us is not just to learn proper manners and social skills but to put on this entire persona that is fake and phony. Let me put it to you this way. I have been speaking to a man who is not autistic in the slightest but was still hounded because he reads and loves poetry. He just simply had his book with him at the workplace and even in the park when he and his wife was watching deer. People became upset. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Look at what Mr. Branson says. He hires by personality first. http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/arti ... ersonality

Look at the responses by the different employers.

They want fun-loving, energetic, and enthusiastic employees which most employers interpret as extraverted. We're going into personality which is part of one's identity. We can't pretend to be something we're not and we can't fake our way through life.

It isn't just social skills anymore. It is about personality. An deep thinking introverted person such as myself can't be this fun loving, enthusiastic and energetic person they want. The rabbit hole is deeper than professionals truthfully think.

My questions are when do we have the right to our identity and our very soul? This is the line in the sand that has to be drawn.



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11 Jul 2014, 1:51 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
ASDmommy, here is where the problem is as far as I see it. In the end, we can't be something we are not. This will catch up to us.

Yes, I agree one should learn proper manners like saying please, thank you, excuse me, etc. Basic manners and Basic human decency yes. Proper behavior yes. I'm even willing to learn how to shake hands properly and learn how to do my grip. I will even change certain stims if I have to. I am pretty open to new ideas and consider myself flexible. I don't know how accurate that is.

There is a line in the sand. What is expected is for us is not just to learn proper manners and social skills but to put on this entire persona that is fake and phony. Let me put it to you this way. I have been speaking to a man who is not autistic in the slightest but was still hounded because he reads and loves poetry. He just simply had his book with him at the workplace and even in the park when he and his wife was watching deer. People became upset. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Look at what Mr. Branson says. He hires by personality first. http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/arti ... ersonality

Look at the responses by the different employers.

They want fun-loving, energetic, and enthusiastic employees which most employers interpret as extraverted. We're going into personality which is part of one's identity. We can't pretend to be something we're not and we can't fake our way through life.

It isn't just social skills anymore. It is about personality. An deep thinking introverted person such as myself can't be this fun loving, enthusiastic and energetic person they want. The rabbit hole is deeper than professionals truthfully think.

My questions are when do we have the right to our identity and our very soul? This is the line in the sand that has to be drawn.


Any place that hires based on a personality one does not have is not a good fit. It is not likely that will be legislated against.

I am not remotely saying I expect my son to change who is. Not even close. Even if he figures out a way to blend in better, he will not thrive somewhere where they expect him to have a different personality.

He does need to learn how to interact with people. I am talking about basic skills, like asking for information you need to complete a project; knowing when to assert oneself, and when to keep complaints to oneself; how to deal with co-workers trying to pawn their work off on you. These are not personality changes. These are functional skills.

The personality issue is a separate one, in my mind.



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11 Jul 2014, 2:48 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
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1) Because social skills training isn't a punishment. It's a way to learn how to avoid being a bully magnet, among other things.


I don't get it. Shouldn't bullies, well, quit bullying? How in this context is this not a punishment?


The most effective responses to bullying are, in fact, two-pronged. You deal with the bullies AND you teach the person being bullied effective strategies for getting the bullies off their case. Schools cannot be everywhere all the time to protect each individual student.

If done appropriately, the kind of training the victim would receive would NOT be about how to blend in better, but how to stand up for themselves better. Bullies look for soft targets; if you can avoid being a soft target, you take away their most effective bullying tool.

With ASD kids there is some acknowledgment that they may not be able to effectively learn how to stand up for themselves and, so, the school will often intervene. But when bullying comes up with NT kids, the schools pretty much always spend time on giving the child tools on how to get the bullies to lay off.

That said, what bothers me in this case is that (a) the school does seem to be neglecting the other prong and (b) didn't take the time to explain their reasoning, leaving me wondering if they are making the suggestion for the right reasons, and if the so-called training would be of the stand-up-for-yourself variety.


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11 Jul 2014, 2:56 pm

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
ASDmommy, here is where the problem is as far as I see it. In the end, we can't be something we are not. This will catch up to us.

Yes, I agree one should learn proper manners like saying please, thank you, excuse me, etc. Basic manners and Basic human decency yes. Proper behavior yes. I'm even willing to learn how to shake hands properly and learn how to do my grip. I will even change certain stims if I have to. I am pretty open to new ideas and consider myself flexible. I don't know how accurate that is.

There is a line in the sand. What is expected is for us is not just to learn proper manners and social skills but to put on this entire persona that is fake and phony. Let me put it to you this way. I have been speaking to a man who is not autistic in the slightest but was still hounded because he reads and loves poetry. He just simply had his book with him at the workplace and even in the park when he and his wife was watching deer. People became upset. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Look at what Mr. Branson says. He hires by personality first. http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/arti ... ersonality

Look at the responses by the different employers.

They want fun-loving, energetic, and enthusiastic employees which most employers interpret as extraverted. We're going into personality which is part of one's identity. We can't pretend to be something we're not and we can't fake our way through life.

It isn't just social skills anymore. It is about personality. An deep thinking introverted person such as myself can't be this fun loving, enthusiastic and energetic person they want. The rabbit hole is deeper than professionals truthfully think.

My questions are when do we have the right to our identity and our very soul? This is the line in the sand that has to be drawn.


Any place that hires based on a personality one does not have is not a good fit. It is not likely that will be legislated against.

I am not remotely saying I expect my son to change who is. Not even close. Even if he figures out a way to blend in better, he will not thrive somewhere where they expect him to have a different personality.

He does need to learn how to interact with people. I am talking about basic skills, like asking for information you need to complete a project; knowing when to assert oneself, and when to keep complaints to oneself; how to deal with co-workers trying to pawn their work off on you. These are not personality changes. These are functional skills.

The personality issue is a separate one, in my mind.


Without getting deep into it, these kinds of things are interesting to talk to my son about. To him, the lines are super blurred as to what is "manners" and what is personality. He does feel that everything he does on the outside affects who he is in the inside. He has learned the necessity of acting certain ways at certain times, but he has never stopped feeling that all the acting changes his personality, too, and despite him being an overall happy and good natured person, there is some resentment building up in him about that, and I don't think it is something I have the power to change.


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cubedemon6073
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11 Jul 2014, 3:32 pm

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Any place that hires based on a personality one does not have is not a good fit.


Exactly, it won't be. One problem, a good chunk of the employers seem to require one to have a certain personality type. I will not claim all but I believe we have a good sample set on that linkdin page. Based upon this sample set I believe we have a strong generalization.

Quote:
It is not likely that will be legislated against.


I agree. In addition, I don't think it ought to be legislated against. I want them to hire me of their own free will and their desire to have me as an employee. Ebay has a policy against selling coupons. Guess what? People sell them anyway and that is because they found a loophole to the rule. All they have to do is to claim they're selling the service of cutting out the coupons and not the coupons themselves. Legislating will not work. People have to want to do what is right

Quote:
I am not remotely saying I expect my son to change who is. Not even close. Even if he figures out a way to blend in better, he will not thrive somewhere where they expect him to have a different personality.


No, he will not thrive. Neither will a lot of us on the spectrum. It will not work.

Quote:
He does need to learn how to interact with people. I am talking about basic skills, like asking for information you need to complete a project; knowing when to assert oneself, and when to keep complaints to oneself; how to deal with co-workers trying to pawn their work off on you. These are not personality changes. These are functional skills.


I agree with this and I need help in some of these areas myself. I was not talking about functional skills though. Functional skills I am 100% for those on the spectrum to learn. That is not the issue I'm talking about. I'm talking about being forced to change one's whole persona. Another skill he needs to learn is to how to ask where the restroom is.

Quote:
The personality issue is a separate one, in my mind.


Agreed and this is where we need to draw the line. If a given society requires one to change his whole personality, identity and metaphorically sell his soul to the devil and put on a falsehood then this is where I have to say no. This is where I believe we must self-advocate and learn how to do that effectively.

We would not stand a chance in Richard Branson's employ, IMHO.



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11 Jul 2014, 3:39 pm

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Without getting deep into it, these kinds of things are interesting to talk to my son about. To him, the lines are super blurred as to what is "manners" and what is personality. He does feel that everything he does on the outside affects who he is in the inside. He has learned the necessity of acting certain ways at certain times, but he has never stopped feeling that all the acting changes his personality, too, and despite him being an overall happy and good natured person, there is some resentment building up in him about that, and I don't think it is something I have the power to change.


I have some resentment for it as well especially when the whole rubric has contradictory standards. Look at the comments Tim Lukeman said on my blog.

http://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.c ... /#comments

http://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.c ... /#comments

I do have at least one NT who understands where I am coming from. We claim as a nation we're individualists and we're all true to ourselves and we're supposed to be true to ourselves yet people seem to conform to this same basic model and state the same hackneyed phrases and mantras. It is a very weird paradox and that we're all conforming to individualism.

How do we have freedom like most people claim when the USA has 1000s of laws and 1000s of social standards that one must follow and are absolute in nature?

The culture of the USA has deep and profound contradictions to them.