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Do followers of Isis and Al queda deserve our sympathy?

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Tequila
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12 Sep 2014, 6:52 am

Spectacles wrote:
My argument is that terrorism is the result of situational pressures


horses**t.

A lot of terrorists aren't short of a fairly privileged upbringing or short of a family with a few quid. They are sometimes privately educated and have gone to the same schools, eat at the same places as the rest of us.

The reason why Islam produces terrorists and other religions don't is because of Islamic ideology and the secondary ideology, popular with Islamists, of grievance mongering and self-victimisation. If you deal with that, you defeat the ideology.



riley
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12 Sep 2014, 7:32 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
Do Isis and Al Queda deserve our sympathy regardless of their suicide bombings and threats to innocent civilians along with beheadings and raping and stoning people to death? I myself dont think so but some might disagree in the name of Allah!


I don't know.. has the media reported anything about them having WWD yet? If they have then we just HAVE to go in... :roll:



Spectacles
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12 Sep 2014, 7:46 am

Tequila wrote:
The reason why Islam produces terrorists and other religions don't is because of Islamic ideology and the secondary ideology, popular with Islamists, of grievance mongering and self-victimisation. If you deal with that, you defeat the ideology.


horses**t,

I assume you're aware of the whole Israel/Palestine conflict and it's religious connotations? As well as the Christian fundamentalists that do their targeted killings? We could go further back to the Crusades if we wanted to look at more large scale terrorism, though we don't need to go that far back. American colonialism/massacre, the KKK. I'm pretty sure Jesus played a pretty large part in that, or so terrorists claimed. Might as well get to know a Muslim if you're going to insult everything Islam stands for (most literate Muslims do not take a fundamentalist take on Islam, thus the word "fundamentalism" reserved for a minority of its practitioners).



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12 Sep 2014, 11:28 am

ISiS is a strong evidence for humanity that sociopathy is mostly made, not born.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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12 Sep 2014, 11:33 am

Spectacles wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Spectacles wrote:
Agreed, it should always be stopped. But I don't think that by killing all those who need to be stopped will stop it. That will only add fuel to the fire, as it already has done. When 9/11 happened, the U.S had sympathy from all around the world. When the Bush administration decided to invade Afghanistan, the opposite was true. You don't kill an idea by killing all those who believe it. If you really wanna kill an idea, provide something better to believe in.


Most don't believe what the terrorists do.


My argument is that terrorism is the result of situational pressures, not irrational nutjobs. I think we've reached a tipping point, yet again, where violence is a necessity to restore confidence in national safety and prevent tensions from escalating into more dangerous territory. However, this could have and should have been avoided. It sounds like Obama is taking measures to not act as culturally insensitive and militarily sloppy as the Bush admin was, which in all likelihood will do more to combat terrorism than the actual fighting (if he's able and willing to keep his word).
With numbers estimated at 10 000, though it's not most, it's still sizable. Recruitment seems to be working to some extent.

It is not due to pressures. It actually becomes a necessity once sympathizers start donating money to the terrorists they quickly learn they can make money and that actually creates pressure to keep being extreme which I suspect is the case with one hate group, maybe more. They don't like talking about their funding and as long as they hide behind religion and distance themselves from politics, they might never, by law, be forced to disclose who gives them funding.

They are not due to pressures, they are basically people who have sadistic components to their personality then jump on an opportunity.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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12 Sep 2014, 12:44 pm

Tequila wrote:
Spectacles wrote:
My argument is that terrorism is the result of situational pressures


horses**t.

A lot of terrorists aren't short of a fairly privileged upbringing or short of a family with a few quid. They are sometimes privately educated and have gone to the same schools, eat at the same places as the rest of us.

The reason why Islam produces terrorists and other religions don't is because of Islamic ideology and the secondary ideology, popular with Islamists, of grievance mongering and self-victimisation. If you deal with that, you defeat the ideology.


Oh please. We have some Christian crazies in the US who are pretty much like ISIL psychologically, only they don't have the opportunity to cause the destruction. ISIL is taking advantage of weak leadership and lack of government. Without government, you see what happens.



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12 Sep 2014, 12:46 pm

I've mentioned it a few times but I think Jeremy Scahill's documentary 'Dirty Wars' would be a good viewing for everyone that wonders what our War on Terror is doing overseas, the perception and reality of how they feel about us.

We have to look at ourselves, we have to look at what creates these people in the first place. We will never defeat these jihadists with bombs, secret prisons, invasions, whatever. That is what they were born in, that's what they were brought up in, and more of it will just create a bigger a problem. I have no appetite for a never ending crusade in the Middle East, we can't afford it and it doesn't make us safer. Osama Bin Laden wasn't a delusional in thinking he could defeat us militarily, he wanted to slowly bleed us dry with a war of a thousand cuts. The fall of Roman empire and the American one as becoming more and more analogous by the day, we are not winning.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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12 Sep 2014, 12:47 pm

Some in this one group were born overseas in places like the UK. Some are Americans. It is much more complicated than just people who are upset over something.

You might think government is bad but the type of government these terrorist cells will create is much worse. You will go back in time and it will be monstrous. You don't want an entire region to devolve. You don't want brainwashing and the inevitable oppression to occur. You give people the opportunity to advance and be free. The majority of them will welcome it once the spell is broken. They will welcome a more peaceful approach to their religion.

The worst times in history have been times when a small minority of ignorant religious fanatics reigned. Think of Europe during the dark ages. Before that, people were using the same engineering we use today and think of as modern. Much of it has been around thousands of years. Small minded ignorants were jealous and didn't want people to benefit from it and didn't want more to be discovered so they made it a sin and forced all to be ignorant and dirty. Don't let this happen. Do not ever bow to these ignorant, small minded fools. Keep on progressing. Any group that doesn't support progress, instead values and insists on honoring a book that's thousands of years old, insisting everyone be bound to that book, must be defeated and NOT permitted to rule a great civilization. They will bring it to its knees. Do not permit forces of darkness to take over.



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12 Sep 2014, 1:00 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Some in this one group were born overseas in places like the UK. Some are Americans. It is much more complicated than just people who are upset over something.


It is complicated and with complicated problems come complicated solutions, saying that and then saying they're all just sociopathic killers and that we need to kill them all seems rather contradictory.

How long are you willing to fight, how much are you willing to sacrifice? 20, 50, 100 years? How many trillions of dollars, how many people are you comfortable dying because of this? I don't want to see thru to the end, I don't think we can survive.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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12 Sep 2014, 1:05 pm

Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Some in this one group were born overseas in places like the UK. Some are Americans. It is much more complicated than just people who are upset over something.


It is complicated and with complicated problems come complicated solutions, saying that and then saying they're all just sociopathic killers and that we need to kill them all seems rather contradictory.

How long are you willing to fight, how much are you willing to sacrifice? 20, 50, 100 years? How many trillions of dollars, how many people are you comfortable dying because of this? I don't want to see thru to the end, I don't think we can survive.


Not only do we need to be committed to fighting forces of ignorance and darkness overseas, we need to fight them here in the US, too. I used to be more like you until I began to monitor and study. I peered into their psychology and I know a namby-pamby approach will NEVER work. They only get worse if you bend to them and talk about their grievances and this and that. They want to force you to be like them and if you are not, they want you dead. That is their psychology.

Most of us think it's fine to be a fanatic so long as you leave us alone and don't bother us with your fanaticism. These fanatics do not believe in "live and let live." They literally want to destroy you unless you are fanatical like they are. They don't want to leave you to exist your way. That is not in their psychological makeup. Basically, they are intolerant.



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12 Sep 2014, 1:19 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
You might think government is bad but the type of government these terrorist cells will create is much worse. You will go back in time and it will be monstrous. You don't want an entire region to devolve. You don't want brainwashing and the inevitable oppression to occur. You give people the opportunity to advance and be free. The majority of them will welcome it once the spell is broken. They will welcome a more peaceful approach to their religion.

The worst times in history have been times when a small minority of ignorant religious fanatics reigned. Think of Europe during the dark ages. Before that, people were using the same engineering we use today and think of as modern. Much of it has been around thousands of years. Small minded ignorants were jealous and didn't want people to benefit from it and didn't want more to be discovered so they made it a sin and forced all to be ignorant and dirty. Don't let this happen. Do not ever bow to these ignorant, small minded fools. Keep on progressing. Any group that doesn't support progress, instead values and insists on honoring a book that's thousands of years old, insisting everyone be bound to that book, must be defeated and NOT permitted to rule a great civilization. They will bring it to its knees. Do not permit forces of darkness to take over.


You're wrong tho, that's Bush era thinking that we'd somehow be thought of as liberators and ignorance of the sectarian and clannish realities on the ground. The Shia are against the Sunnis, the Sunnis are against the Shia, everyone is against the Kurds, the Islamic State is against everyone. It isn't a war we understand nor one we can win and the our government wants to fight it with one arm tied behinds its back as it doesn't want to appear to be assisting the Shia(Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria). The Sunnis(Turkey, Saudis, Jordan, etc) tacitly support IS in its war against the Shia and have no interest in fighting IS outside their borders, they all have to deal with their own domestic extremist problems themselves. Nobody likes the Kurds as the Kurds want to carve a big chuck out of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran where a large amount of their oil comes from. The Kurds are hardly a monolithic group either, there are internal divisions as well.

The people do not want us there, this is a fact. In Afghanistan they will welcome back the Taliban with open arms the minute the US leaves, in Sunni Iraq they welcomed the Islamic State. The people of these countries and other Muslims need to fight, we shouldn't have a dog in this fight.



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12 Sep 2014, 1:31 pm

Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
You might think government is bad but the type of government these terrorist cells will create is much worse. You will go back in time and it will be monstrous. You don't want an entire region to devolve. You don't want brainwashing and the inevitable oppression to occur. You give people the opportunity to advance and be free. The majority of them will welcome it once the spell is broken. They will welcome a more peaceful approach to their religion.

The worst times in history have been times when a small minority of ignorant religious fanatics reigned. Think of Europe during the dark ages. Before that, people were using the same engineering we use today and think of as modern. Much of it has been around thousands of years. Small minded ignorants were jealous and didn't want people to benefit from it and didn't want more to be discovered so they made it a sin and forced all to be ignorant and dirty. Don't let this happen. Do not ever bow to these ignorant, small minded fools. Keep on progressing. Any group that doesn't support progress, instead values and insists on honoring a book that's thousands of years old, insisting everyone be bound to that book, must be defeated and NOT permitted to rule a great civilization. They will bring it to its knees. Do not permit forces of darkness to take over.


You're wrong tho, that's Bush era thinking that we'd somehow be thought of as liberators and ignorance of the sectarian and clannish realities on the ground. The Shia are against the Sunnis, the Sunnis are against the Shia, everyone is against the Kurds, the Islamic State is against everyone. It isn't a war we understand nor one we can win and the our government wants to fight it with one arm tied behinds its back as it doesn't want to appear to be assisting the Shia(Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria). The Sunnis(Turkey, Saudis, Jordan, etc) tacitly support IS in its war against the Shia and have no interest in fighting IS outside their borders, they all have to deal with their own domestic extremist problems themselves. Nobody likes the Kurds as the Kurds want to carve a big chuck out of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran where a large amount of their oil comes from. The Kurds are hardly a monolithic group either, there are internal divisions as well.

The people do not want us there, this is a fact. In Afghanistan they will welcome back the Taliban with open arms the minute the US leaves, in Sunni Iraq they welcomed the Islamic State. The people of these countries and other Muslims need to fight, we shouldn't have a dog in this fight.

I disagree. IMO intelligent people should help other intelligent people, not throw them to these people. We must not let their light be lost in that bastion of wicked ignorance.



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12 Sep 2014, 1:36 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Some in this one group were born overseas in places like the UK. Some are Americans. It is much more complicated than just people who are upset over something.


It is complicated and with complicated problems come complicated solutions, saying that and then saying they're all just sociopathic killers and that we need to kill them all seems rather contradictory.

How long are you willing to fight, how much are you willing to sacrifice? 20, 50, 100 years? How many trillions of dollars, how many people are you comfortable dying because of this? I don't want to see thru to the end, I don't think we can survive.


Not only do we need to be committed to fighting forces of ignorance and darkness overseas, we need to fight them here in the US, too. I used to be more like you until I began to monitor and study. I peered into their psychology and I know a namby-pamby approach will NEVER work. They only get worse if you bend to them and talk about their grievances and this and that. They want to force you to be like them and if you are not, they want you dead. That is their psychology.

Most of us think it's fine to be a fanatic so long as you leave us alone and don't bother us with your fanaticism. These fanatics do not believe in "live and let live." They literally want to destroy you unless you are fanatical like they are. They don't want to leave you to exist your way. That is not in their psychological makeup. Basically, they are intolerant.


I don't believe the majority of these people are fanatics or innately evil people, they're just joining a cause to rectify their grievances and these are the groups picking up the fight. They don't exist in a vacuum, why are people sometimes educated sometimes not picking up arms and joining these extremist groups? Is it a coincidence that we're seeing this explosion of extremists now that mostly came of age during the invasion & occupation of Iraq? Do you believe we're safer now because this War on Terror? What has it actually accomplished besides wasting trillions and killing thousands and thousands of innocent people?

My favorite ad of the 2012 election was this one for Ron Paul which illustrated how the people of these countries see out military presence in their country's.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhxBM8ebECo[/youtube]



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12 Sep 2014, 1:42 pm

A grievance is no excuse to act like a sadistic jack ass.

About time someone said books that were not even written by God, instead, were written by foolish leaders and rulers, have no place dictating to the world how we should approach God or what we should think or how we should act.



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13 Sep 2014, 4:27 pm

Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Some in this one group were born overseas in places like the UK. Some are Americans. It is much more complicated than just people who are upset over something.


It is complicated and with complicated problems come complicated solutions, saying that and then saying they're all just sociopathic killers and that we need to kill them all seems rather contradictory.

How long are you willing to fight, how much are you willing to sacrifice? 20, 50, 100 years? How many trillions of dollars, how many people are you comfortable dying because of this? I don't want to see thru to the end, I don't think we can survive.


Not only do we need to be committed to fighting forces of ignorance and darkness overseas, we need to fight them here in the US, too. I used to be more like you until I began to monitor and study. I peered into their psychology and I know a namby-pamby approach will NEVER work. They only get worse if you bend to them and talk about their grievances and this and that. They want to force you to be like them and if you are not, they want you dead. That is their psychology.

Most of us think it's fine to be a fanatic so long as you leave us alone and don't bother us with your fanaticism. These fanatics do not believe in "live and let live." They literally want to destroy you unless you are fanatical like they are. They don't want to leave you to exist your way. That is not in their psychological makeup. Basically, they are intolerant.


I don't believe the majority of these people are fanatics or innately evil people, they're just joining a cause to rectify their grievances and these are the groups picking up the fight. They don't exist in a vacuum, why are people sometimes educated sometimes not picking up arms and joining these extremist groups? Is it a coincidence that we're seeing this explosion of extremists now that mostly came of age during the invasion & occupation of Iraq? Do you believe we're safer now because this War on Terror? What has it actually accomplished besides wasting trillions and killing thousands and thousands of innocent people?

My favorite ad of the 2012 election was this one for Ron Paul which illustrated how the people of these countries see out military presence in their country's.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhxBM8ebECo[/youtube]


Ron Paul might have had better success in reaching a target electorate had he switched parties early on. I just don't see the current Republican party, under the aegis of the far right, being all that receptive to this message.


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13 Sep 2014, 4:36 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Some in this one group were born overseas in places like the UK. Some are Americans. It is much more complicated than just people who are upset over something.


It is complicated and with complicated problems come complicated solutions, saying that and then saying they're all just sociopathic killers and that we need to kill them all seems rather contradictory.

How long are you willing to fight, how much are you willing to sacrifice? 20, 50, 100 years? How many trillions of dollars, how many people are you comfortable dying because of this? I don't want to see thru to the end, I don't think we can survive.


Not only do we need to be committed to fighting forces of ignorance and darkness overseas, we need to fight them here in the US, too. I used to be more like you until I began to monitor and study. I peered into their psychology and I know a namby-pamby approach will NEVER work. They only get worse if you bend to them and talk about their grievances and this and that. They want to force you to be like them and if you are not, they want you dead. That is their psychology.

Most of us think it's fine to be a fanatic so long as you leave us alone and don't bother us with your fanaticism. These fanatics do not believe in "live and let live." They literally want to destroy you unless you are fanatical like they are. They don't want to leave you to exist your way. That is not in their psychological makeup. Basically, they are intolerant.


I constantly get jumped on for bringing up how Randy Weaver had brought about the siege at Ruby Ridge, and the deaths of his wife and son. But the fact of the matter is, the white supremacist element in north Idaho like the Weavers, the Aryan Nations, the Order, and the Phineas Priesthood were quite simply never going to leave the rest of us alone, regardless of the popular myth believed in by libertarians and conservatives that, despite their outlandish ideas, they just wanted to be left alone. I live in the same neighborhood where the Phineas Priesthood had robbed a bank in order to finance a race war. Would they have ever been successful? Of course not, but in trying to establish their racist dystopia, they hurt a whole lot of people. I see ISIL and Al Qaeda very much in the same light - that is, ignore them and let them alone to their own devices at your own peril.


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