so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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^ Yup.

I think it boils down to "take your time before hopping in the sack with someone; get to know them as a person first."

Which part did you read as a rape accusation?

Well...I think it boils down to more than that. I also think that this is overcomplicating the matter significantly. Remember that end of the day we're talking about asking, "May I kiss you" or some such before kissing, "I'd like to X" before Xing, and so on. This doesn't require moonshot strategizing; it just requires learning how to ask smoothly and comfortably. A woman who's genuinely into you isn't going to pack up and say, "Ugh, forget it, goodnight, smell ya later" if you ask and she finds asking irritating. Men do ALL KINDS of things that women find irritating, and yet we stick around. (Seriously, you have no idea.)

If she leaves because you asked rather than just laying one on her...she didn't like ya that much in the first place.

Is a molehill, fellas, not Everest.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqM0etXJ6HQ[/youtube]

I don't think non-verbal communication should be equated with mind reading. As an autistic person I have to put an effort into both non-verbal and verbal communication. And honestly I find them equally difficult. But this doesn't disqualify either as legitimate methods of communication. I fear that with a reliance soley on verbal commucnication as the method of establishing consent that people may be too comfortable with a reluctanct verbal acquiescence.

That is what I was implying with my remarks about not relying on mind-reading (or nonverbal signal-reading, as the case may be). But, yeah, it's totally true that if you asking is a turnoff for her, she really wasn't into you in the first place.

Do you mean that getting to know someone before having sex is overly complicating? Or just the bit about "how to be friends"?

In my case... If someone asks me, regardless of how "into them" I am, I'm effectively thrown off track. It completely disrupts my train of thought and, therefore, runs a risk of breaking the mood.

I can be in a committed relationship with the most wonderful person I've ever met, with physical attraction to the roof, and it'll still happen that way.

I can't imagine that nobody else feels this way.

The asking thing is unrealistic. It's never going to work. It kills the mood.

As for hugs (similar thing), nobody I know asks for a hug first. It just happens. Same with a kiss. Otherwise it feels awkward.

It's up to the spectrumites to read up on body language properly and learn for themselves. It's really not that difficult. And for the minority who *really* are unable to understand even after studying body language...they need to ask. For the majority of people, asking is not required. Respecting boundaries is, and it's perfectly said most of the time through body language. If someone doesn't want to be kissed? They freeze up or they back off. The other person should be able to (or learn) to sense this movement quite clearly. Crossing the line is when they miss it or ignore it.

And for me a kiss is intimate and takes me a while to build up to. I think if the couple build up slowly and touch each other lightly on the arm, or cuddle first, then it would be much easier to tell whether a kiss is wanted. There are other signs like prolonged eye contact, or her looking at his lips or 'browsing' over his torso every now and then. It's a cluster of signs. Giggling and hair stroking are done by women anyway, they're not really to be taken for flirtation signs. Aspies need to read up on body language. They can't adjust their own, but they can certainly learn how to read others'.

Someone said earlier in the thread though, that the words, "I would really like to kiss you" were attractive. For me it would be, because it sounds like the guy is confident, vs. asking which sounds uncomfortable. Perhaps this is the ideal for aspies who find reading others' body language impossible.

I agree that it is a good idea for Aspies (or anyone, for that matter) to read up on body language and other nonverbal signals. As a follow-up to reading, go out and do some people-watching, or romantic movie-watching (preferably old movies - they may be as contrived as newer movies, but the respectful way women were treated by old-timey movie heroes is never out of line).

For me, personally, I've never had someone kiss me out of the blue on a first date - there was always plenty of lead-up, the infamous "I'd really like to kiss you" being the best way I've ever received a first kiss from a "new" man. Or maybe I've just been really successful at giving unmistakable nonverbal signals that I did NOT want them to kiss me.

*shrug* This topic has been beaten to death, and it is clear there will never be a consensus. I leave this thread by repeating my core message: it is always better to err on the side of respect.

How is ?I?d really like to kiss you? any better than asking? To me, it sounds like there?s an implied ?but I know full well you are completely beyond my reach?, and therefore inviting an answer along these lines

Ok data taking from the pof enormous thread:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts3087240.aspx

I've gathered so far the first 4 pages (I will keep continuing in free time and when I feel like it) - each page has about 25 posts.


For gender identification, I rely on their photos(many post real photos, on their words for example if they say "Yes, I like it when a guy is confident and just kisses me!! ! So romantic!!" then I assume she's female, their pof profile of some them, in doubt I might take a quick look on their past posts in other thread, if there's too doubt I don't include them in data. The ones who require to be asked will always be considered females - no need for further investigation (and this gives an advantage for this group).

I've grouped the women' s opinions on the kiss matter in 3 groups:

Group 1: Want spontaneity.
Group 2: Who are ok with both ways.
Group 3: Require asking.

There's also a 4th special group which is part of Group 1 I called "Extreme" - those who find being asked as a turn off or dealbreaker or hated approach, (and their % is calculated out of group 1, not the whole total), for example:

Data so far shows:



Just 4 pages for now.... this will take time because it's boring lol.

It's also I might have made some mistake somewhere, added an entry for the wrong group, if you can tell and follow, correct me.

doesn't count not a random sample size.Message boards on not scientific.
so,your findings are meaningless.

1-not all women go on pof
2-only based on pof female members who CHOOSE to take part
of the survey or discussion

A-stop using unscientific surveys

It wasn't meant to be a scientific survey.

Neither WP's sample of women is scientific too.

Plus I might include threads of other forums after I am done with pof.

Why would you think that? I hear "May I?" While the thoroughly literal, I suppose, would hear "This is what I would like," and wait for an actual request.

When I've told men such things -- usually followed with "if that's all right with you", or some such, there's been no mistake about the meaning.

The problem with the "if the person freezes up or moves away" idea is that you've already done something to them that they didn't want. You've already violated their space. And there's no reason why they should have to go through that. Similarly, if you're at a restaurant and your friend's food looks good, you don't just help yourself from their plate and figure that if they don't like it, they'll smack your hand or pull their plate away. You ask, "Hey, can I try some of your ____?"

It would have to be said with confidence, and not as if asking a question.

Based on 99 women' opinions (from 8 pages of the thread: http://forums.plentyoffish.com/3087240d ... page8.aspx)

Data distribution so far:



Reminder: the discussion there is about the kiss on a date, not from a stranger or friend.