The Other Eye Contact Problem

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We've spoken of making too little and compensating with too much. But what if your eye contact is simply conveying something unintended? I just watched the new Autism Talk TV episode, How to Flirt and Get a Date! - Autism Talk TV 20. Here's the comment I ended up making:

I've become aware of at least one occasion when someone was flirting with me even though I didn't know it at the time, because she reacted badly when I didn't respond the way she wanted me to. All of a sudden one night, she started crying and getting upset over it. Granted, she was right that I wasn't attracted to her. But I'd have cleared things up sooner if I'd known what she was doing. We hung out several times, usually at her apartment. Near as I can figure, her only sign that maybe should've been clear to me was when she played her guitar at the park and sang a couple of Indigo Girls tunes. But I just thought "Secure Yourself" and "Closer to Fine" were good songs everybody liked and had fun singing, not that they were love songs or anything. If I recall correctly, she sang "Kid Fears", too. That's not a love song, for sure. Did I misunderstand the other two songs or something?

Anyway, as I was going through my adolescence and twenties, I got used to the idea that I shouldn't get the wrong impression from others, just because they were nice to me, and go thinking they were interested just because they paid attention to me. So, it was a pleasant surprise for me in my thirties when I somehow ended up discovering mutual interest with someone and finally got a girlfriend at last. What I never knew, though, was that I might've not only missed it when others were interested in me, but that I might've conveyed interest either when I didn't mean it or that I was conveying real interest when I was trying not to be obvious with it, so as to not bother anyone who might not be interested in me.

Any comments on the video or these hidden flirtation tactics?

I think you're right.......if somebody doesn't know how to flirt, then they don't know how not to flirt either. Don't want to arouse the wrong kind of attention and not even know you've done it.

I recall being surprised when I'd had what I'd thought was a short matter of fact conversation with a woman in a shop, and she'd made a loaded comment as she walked away that made me realise she'd been checking me out all the time. AFAIK I'd just been my ordinary self, but I still wonder to this day if I'd gone and handed out a copulatory gaze or something. Eye contact is a thing I mostly have to remember to do at all, and I don't know what kind of mis-timing I could be doing. Worrying, though of course the only usual result would be a very small number of slightly disappointed women......I guess I could be in more trouble from men if I were female.

I've not been accused by partners of flirting with other women, though I haven't had a lot to do with other women when I've been in a relationship.

The only flirtty gestures I noticed in the film clip was the girl giving him those quick furtive glances and pushing her hair out of her face more often than normal.

I saw several of my partners flirt with other men. One would stand rather close, push out her chest, gaze rather a lot at this guy while having a jokey conversation with him with mutual benign put-downs. Another would grin and gaze at some guys for quite a while. Another did a very long smiley eye-contact thing with a guy while she was talking with him. One gazed and smiled at a stranger once, another did just the same, and one giggled and gazed at a guy on and off for quite a while. I've no idea what most of that stuff meant. In some cases I think it was Aspie social ineptitude. One later said it was a cruel, callous thing she'd done, another asked me if her flirting was the reason why I'd gone off her (I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what flirting was in those days). The others couldn't or wouldn't explain what it meant, or it didn't come up.

So I can see how being able to give eye contact isn't the only problem. Where I get really bogged down is that I gather a lot of people see a certain low level of flirting as just a way of staying cheerful, and I'm never sure whether to try to join in with that or to reject it and see it as always serious, or how I'd ever fathom a boundary that wasn't either "open season" or "absolutely not," because anything between just looks so complicated. Until that lady had said she'd been cruel, I honestly didn't feel sure.....I thought I might just be oversensitive to something that's always likely to happen.

I've never been accused of trying to flirt, but people say it's creepy that I stare at them when in reality I'm just spacing out.

I've engaged in what I thought was benign, obvious flirting between me, as a drummer, and a friend of mine, as a dancer. She's never given any indication of taking it any other way, and, in that context, I seem to know what's going on. Dancers are interactive in their performances, and their flirting with an audience or a musician is safe. Nothing is expected of it, and anyone who thinks they're going to get more because of it is most likely thinking along inappropriate lines. Dancers need to feel safe in order to want to dance, because they do their art with their bodies and are consequently kind of vulnerable. So, it's important that people not make wrong assumptions. The kind of flirting that goes on then seems pretty clear to me. But I guess there's a lot more to the whole flirting issue than that.

Yeah, more of that Aspie on/off switch thing again, I guess. *sigh*

CyborgUprising, your situation sounds rough...

I didn't notice a damn thing, except Alex looked sort of puzzled or concerned once they started talking. It looked to me like a couple of strangers in a doctor's office chatting. I would've guessed they were talking about the doctor or maybe a road closure from an accident or something like that. Until they started writing down numbers anyway.

Ick, I've had that problem before when I was trying to "learn" to make eye contact (I still tend not to unless it's with people I know well, and even then, glancing)

It has given the wrong impression, and I went further into eyesolation as a result.

I also need to learn what's appropriate to indicate "OH H*** NO!" rather then "Come get some, big boy!"
Add to which I cannot figure out how to end a conversation, recipe for disaster!

The video looked..... sterile... to me... They say "real girl" but it all seems very scripted to me (I assume "real girl" means "complete stranger", and I also assume I am wrong) I didn't see anything other then casual conversation that *magically* led to him scoring?? WTF did I miss???

Watch the girl at 1'33" - see how she gives him a quick glance, and looks away as soon as he notices out of the corner of his eye and turns to look at her? There's something rather piercing and loaded about her expression, particularly in the eyes there, but that's more an intuitive thing........I can't tell quite what it is about that expression There's two more furtive glances, at 1'36" and 1'45." At 1'46" she kind of tosses her head. I also thought I saw something fishy at 2'15" but I don't know what exactly.......and she flicks her hair back at 2'19" although her hair was going slightly over her face just prior to that, so it could be construed as a simple practical movement. [It raises a rather interesting question: why would anybody have a hairstyle that kept getting in their eyes anyway? When I was a long-haired hippie my hair did that, so I was considering tying it back or getting a hat.........one skinhead I knew didn't like to see me pushing it back and he used to mimick me and insinuate I was a bit of a girlie. ]

Apart from that, the only other thing I noticed was that she was smiling practically all the time, not just at him but almost constantly once he began talking with her, and was soon giving him her full attention, and she looked like she was having a bit of trouble containing her delight.. Also the way she doesn't turn her body towards him so much, but just turns her head, and is possibly using that bare shoulder as a flirting accessory. I've seen this thing where the lady will touch her shoulder with her chin.....the shoulder can be clothed or not but it's probably more effective if it's a smooth, pink, nude hemisphere........knees, buttocks, breasts, shoulders, they all seem to have the same basic effect.....apparently female monkeys flash their butts at the males to signal them for sex, and human males still go for anything remotely resembling that, only we cal them "curves."

I agree that context and culture have a huge bearing on how seriously to take these apparent signals. Last time I performed with a band (2011) I kind of did a round and engaged with each member of the band in turn, 3 guys and a lady, just rocking in step with each other face to face (a couple of feet away at least).......it's something a lot of performers do, I guess it's partly because audiences like to see human interactions, especially flirting, and partly because it helps the music - even when recording, the musicians often "get in touch" with each other visually, not just to synchronize but to somehow egg each other on emotionally.

Whether or not it's "serious," I don't know. Years ago this guy did a guest vocal spot in my band, he was quite an extravert, had been to drama school, and was doing these moves.......like an exagerrated version of what I did last year, with more intense rocking and staring, swaying the hand-held mic widely to and fro, and almost forcing us to reciprocate.............anyway we started copying that a bit, and when he watched us later he said me and the guitarist looked like a right pair of fa***ts. I guess there must be some kind of sexuality in it.......of course with entertainers it might be mostly for show, but bands are often quite close, I think the visual stuff is likely to bring them closer, and if it's a mixed band, there might be some genuine sexual feelings around - after all, we're not robots and we often reach each other emotionally on quite a deep level with our music. It's all rather romantic, isn't it, compared to everyday life? I try not to think about the supposed phallic symbolism of electric guitars........if I do, I feel cheap and guilty for playing them in public.

I know......I still don't know whether that partner who (I now realise) flirted a lot was out of line or just the only normal NT I've been close to.

These days I watch from the corners of my eyes a lot more. That way, sometimes I know they're looking at me but they don't know I'm looking at them. A group of women just walked past me. I didn't look directly at any of them but I noticed most of them seemed to turn their faces away from me as they passed, like people do in lifts when they're a bit too close, but one of them looked straight at me for a second or so. Maybe she thought she knew me, maybe she was culturally a bit different to the others.

It's as well to remember that staring is also a threat signal, as if this wasn't complicated enough already. It's said that the one who looks away first is the underdog. No wonder Aspies often just don't do eye contact. It's by far the simplest option. But I want to know what people are up to.

I enjoyed the pun, Monkeybuttorama.

I find ending conversations awkward. I can do it, but it feels oddly drawn out into fits and starts and then the question of who talks last. It's especially hard on the phone. Knowing when and how to end a visit with someone, whether at my place or theirs, is also a challenge of sorts.

Back to the video: Perhaps "real girl" meant not some substitute, the mention of which might actually be both inappropriate for general audiences and insulting to long-term single men?

As for how the two present themselves in the video, they're not actors, as far as I know. Maybe that's why the situation doesn't look more smooth.

I have to ask: Who asks someone out in a waiting room??? Okay, so, first you have to do this funny eye thing. Then you have to peer over to spy on what they're reading or watching on their phone, so that you can figure out what to hope will be a common interest to discuss. Then you have to have a schedule in your head already prepared so that you know what to offer as a related activity. Then you check if they're busy, which is the part that makes sense, because a disinterested person can claim to be busy, thereby avoiding saying they don't want to go out with you. But what if they really are busy and also do want to go out? If I wanted to go out with someone and got asked to something when I had other commitments, I wouldn't know how to convey that I really meant we should go out another time, rather than that I was just being nice by saying another time would be better. I wouldn't necessarily know when a better time might be without consulting my calendar at home. (I don't have a cell phone of any sort.)

Dating in order to get to know someone is such a strange activity. Really, I think it's much better to do what my girlfriend and I did, which is to hang out in a group that shares interests, so that you get to know a bunch of people. Then, if you discover you like someone, you can just gravitate slowly towards each other until the two of you finally figure out you have mutual attraction. I've gotten 12 years, so far, of a relationship out of that, so I know it works.

By the way, if you think all this stuff is hard enough, try it while being a gay teenager! I came out at 15, in the 1980s, when it was much more dangerous. I'm glad I'll never have to go through that again!! !

I asked that question of a school friend when I was about 15........a girl had tried to blow me off with "perhaps some other time?" and he'd been breaking it to me that I couldn't take that as a "yes." So I said, what happens if a girl likes me but is really busy? He said she would then stress how much she wanted the date with me, her answer would be less idle, she would seem a bit excited that I'd asked. If a lady asked me out (I know, it's rare ) and I was busy, if I was interested then I'd try to do exactly that......make it clear that I think the idea's brilliant, to suggest a later date.....if I didn't know in advance when I would be free, I'd take a "no, this is going to happen" attitude, promise to get back to her as soon as I knew my free slots, consider just booking her anyway and fix the double-booking problem later somehow, and if some intervention were needed to ensure we met again, ask for some contact details so I could keep my promise to her.

A woman at work once asked me to go to a conference with her but we both had partners and I didn't feel it was right (she wasn't a particularly close friend and she had little interest in the conference itself, so I smelled a rat). I didn't want to tell her that so I just said yes, that would be nice, and never raised the matter again, so I didn't go. I suppose if she'd come back to me about it, I'd have had to think of an excuse. The lady was eventually sacked for lousy timekeeping, fiddling and working the system, so I reckon I was right not to trust her. I mean it was ony capitalists she'd stolen from, but even so...........

I don't think I could ever talk to a guy in situation like this. It would be too unnatural. I have to have some sort of connection to someone other than being in the same place at the same time to feel comfortable enough to talk, never mind to set up a date. I found the video to be superficial and artificial. You're in the doctor's office so obviously something is wrong - I would be overwhelmed with that, not with practicing my social cues.

I think that the video by Autism Speaks is really interesting, but it does look crafted and staged. It's really informative, but it might not show some of the other nuances of flirting, that would be present in an actual casual meeting.

I totally understand where some of the above replies are coming from, with the unintentional flirting. I never purposefully flirted. That idea still scares me.

But I tend to make a lot of eye contact, which can get me in trouble--with people thinking I'm flirting with them. It's so awkward to me. Plus, if I see someone standing alone, I will often talk to them--not because I'm trying to flirt but because they seem like they might want someone to talk to.

And preening. Yesterday, when I was going door to door for work, I noticed I began to compulsively preen--touch my hair, play with my collar--and most embarrassingly, I began automatically adjusting my bra strap in front of the customers...pulling on your bra straps is NOT a professional thing to do. I wasn't flirting--I did this with women and men. It was just anxiety.

And flushing is another problem. I get really nervous and start flushing, and fanning myself, and playing with my hair--and it's all from anxiety, not from flirting...but I'm sure it can send mixed signals.

I really look forward to learning more about flirting and body language though. I'm beginning to think it might be fun, not scary, to actually flirt with someone I'm interested in--in the future. Usually I just get so anxious that I freeze up, can't talk, and then try my best to look like I'm completely ignoring the person I'm attracted to. It's not the most effective method.

Maybe it's always superficial and artificial in that sort of situation? I can't really imagine even wanting to go on a date with a complete stranger. The concept strikes me as bizarre, and seems like it would be superficial and artificial. If you don't even know anything about the person, how could there be any interest at all?

The video seems patronizing to me. How could you possibly expect to understand all the nuances of communication by playing out a silly skit? In real life, there is so much more in play. Someone I don't know striking up a conversation with me and trying to find things in common between us would just be creepy.

I too thought the film clip showed things moving much too fast for my comfort....I've never dated after a first chance meeting and usually we've spent quite a long time getting to know each other first. I don't think I've particularly flirted either.....even dating itself, I haven't really gone out for meals or entertainments with them much - sure it's been a feature, and a good one at that, but it's never been the lifeblood of the thing.

I guess it could be that the mainstream just don't see a date as anything all that profound, and would think nothing of dating several unknown people a week, expecting only a chance to find out what somebody is like. Maybe a lot of Aspies don't date much, and so when it does happen then if it doesn't go anywhere it feels more like a failed relationship.

Trouble is, flirting is shown as the entire selection process for a date, which selects only those with sexual chemistry between them, and I don't see how that can be kept out of the dating experience which is supposed to be trivial. Seems to me like a recipe for ending up in bed with a near-stranger. Then there's the health and safety issue. I can't believe the film shows a context that represents what usually happens. But for the purposes of demonstrating a few boy-girl signals, I think they captured something.

My friends are always accusing me of flirting with everyone I meet. I don't mean to though. I like having funny conversations with people I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if this action in and of itself with a member of the opposite sex equates to flirting in the minds of most people.

What was really embarrassing was when I got a really short haircut in 9th grade and was hit on by some middle school girls for about three months without even being aware of it. =_= I just kept thinking, "I guess they look up to me, like a big sister or something." I had no idea they thought I was actually a 13-year-old boy. I was horribly embarrassed when my friend told me years later.